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heman
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 Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: The Promises of Christ our Stronghold |
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Christ our Stronghold
Phil 4:13 I am strong in the one strengthening me.
| Quote: | 1Co 2:12-16 And we have not received the spirit of the world: but the spirit which cometh of God, for to know the things that are given to us of God,
1Co 4:1-16 Let men this wise esteem us, even as the ministers of Christ, and disposers{stewards} of the secrets of God.
Eph 6:16 Above all take to you the shield of faith, wherewith ye may quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of health,{salvation} and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God,
2Pe 3:15 And suppose that the long suffering of the Lord is health,{salvation} even as our dearly beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given unto him, wrote to you
My main point about THE PLAIN TRUTH is that without Christ we really can't do anything absolutely perfect, and will always come short.. Even with mass scholarship, translations, manuscripts what-have-you.. or even (if it were possible) the original Scriptures themselves as first penned would avail nothing without him who is risen from the dead, alive and on high at the right of the father beholding us. For if the foundation (i.e. Jesu Christ) isn't properly acknowledged (especially today) then how do you stand to begin with?
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, and ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. For without me can ye do nothing.
1 Cor 3:11-23 11For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself laudable unto God
Rom 9:1-33 I Say the truth in Christ and lie not, in that whereof my conscience beareth me witness in the holy ghost, Rom 9:2 that I have great heaviness, and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I have wished myself to be cursed from Christ for my brethren, which are my kinsmen as pertaining to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 Which are the Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, (of the children) and the glory, and the testaments,{convenants} and the ordinance of the law,{the law that was given} and the service of God, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose also are the fathers, and they of whom (as concerning the flesh) Christ came: which is God over all things blessed forever Amen. |
AND AGAIN, Rom 9:1 ? I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit
Rom 9:4 Which are the Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, (of the children) and the glory, and the testaments,{convenants} and the ordinance of the law,{the law that was given} and the service of God, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose also are the fathers, and they of whom (as concerning the flesh) Christ came: which is God over all things blessed forever Amen
AND THESE ARE THE PROMISES:
De 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Ge 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Ge 17:7 ? And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Ge 28: 1 ? And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, ?
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
4
Ge 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.
Ac 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
DE 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
1 Pet 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth?. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, [color=red]received not the promise:[/color]
(THAT PROMISE IS THE MYSTERY OF GOD)
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 ? And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, (THAT PROMISE OF INHERITANCE),whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD |
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JAdmin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Promises of Christ our Stronghold |
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| heman wrote: |
Phil 4:13 I am strong in the one strengthening me.
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That sounds like it'll open one big can of worms because it can lead into all sorts of misinterpretations.
The faithful Greek witnesses that have withstood the test of time in principle.. | Psalms 100:5 | | For the LORD is gracious, his mercy is everlasting, and his truth endureth from generation to generation. |
| Malachi 3:6 | | For I am the LORD that change not, and ye (O children of Jacob) will not leave off: |
| Hebrews 13:8 | | Jesus Christ yesterday and today, and the same continueth for ever. |
..agree with Christ: χριστω
| Code: | | 4:13 παντα ισχυω εν τω ενδυναμουντι με χριστω |
| Philippians 4:13 | | I can do all things thorow the help of Christ, which strengtheneth me. |
Christ is very clear that he is the one who strengtheneth his:
| John 14:6 | | Jesus said unto him I am the way, the verity, and life. No man cometh unto the father, but by me. |
| Quote: |
I am the true vine, and my father is an husbandman.
Every branch that beareth not fruit in me; He will take away. And every branch that beareth fruit will he purge that it may bring more fruit. Now are ye clean, be that means of{thorow} the words which<because of the word that> I have spoken unto you.
Bide in me, and I{let me bide} in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it bide in the vine: no more can ye except ye abide in me. I am the vine, and ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. For without me can ye do nothing. If a man bide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them,{it} and cast them{it} into the fire, and they burneth.
-Joh. 15:1-6 |
Me perceiveth God in his sovereign providence kept the manuscripts he faithfully wished (via brave martyrs, even the reformers who collected the witness thereof), and of course did not need any mysterious manuscripts (not agreeing with eachother) to preserve his truth from one generation to another. That's why the Lord adverted:
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars?<thistles?>" --Mat. 7:16
? No wonder that the Codex Vaticanus (the same manuscript that omitted "Christ" at Phil 4:13)
and on the margin at Heb. 1:3 has a complaint stating:
αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει
Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!
| Heman wrote: | | AND AGAIN, Rom 9:1 ? I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit |
Just because saint Paul was telling the truth, doesn't mean that you are fully comprehending it, as Peter himself acknowledged:
| 2 Peter 3:15-16 | | 15And suppose that the long suffering of the Lord is health, even as our dearly beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given unto him, wrote to you, 16yea, almost in every pistel speaking of such things: among which are many things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned, and unstable pervert, as they do other scriptures unto their own destruction. |
| Heman wrote: |
AND THESE ARE THE PROMISES:
De 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Ge 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Ge 17:7 ? And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Ge 28: 1 ? And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, ?
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
4
Ge 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.
Ac 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
DE 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
1 Pet 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth?. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, [color=red]received not the promise:[/color]
(THAT PROMISE IS THE MYSTERY OF GOD)
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 ? And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, (THAT PROMISE OF INHERITANCE),whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. |
This is a great ensample how the writtings of Paul can be so misunderstood!
| Romans 10:4 | | For Christ is the end of the law to justify all that believe. |
What law is Paul talking about here? because he begins his epistle letter in regards to:
| Romans 3:27 | | Where is then thy rejoicing? It is excluded. By what law? by the law of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. |
Notwithstanding:
| Code: | 1Ti 1:8 We know that the law is god,{good} if a man use it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 understanding this, how that the law is not given unto a righteous man, but unto the unrighteous and disobedient, to the ungodly and to sinners, to unholy and unclean, to murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, to manslayers
1Ti 1:10 and whoremongers: to them that defile themselves with mankind: to menstealers: to liars and to perjured, and so forth if there be any other thing that is contrary to wholesome doctrine
1Ti 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the holy God,{the gospell of the glory of the blessed God} which gospel is committed unto me.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank him that hath made me strong in Christ Jesu our Lord:{And i thank Christ Iesus our Lorde which hath made me strong:} for he counted me true, and put me in office,
1Ti 1:13 when before I was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and a tyrant. Nevertheless I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly, in{thorow} unbelief:
1Ti 1:14 but{Neverthelater} the grace of our Lord was more abundant, with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesu. |
And in regards to the promises, apostle Paul well said:
| Quote: | Gal 3:15 Brethren I will speak after the manner of men. Though it be but a man's testament, yet no man despiseth it, or addeth any thing thereto when it is once allowed.<confrimed>
Gal 3:16 To Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith{seyth} not, in thy{the} seeds as in many: But in thy seed, as in one, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 This I say that the law which began afterward, beyond four hundred and thirty years, doth not disannul the testament, that was confirmed{afore} of God unto Christ ward, to make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance come of the law, it cometh not of promise: but God gave it unto Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? The law was added because of transgression (till the seed came to which the promise was made) and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.<given of angels, by the hand of the mediatour>
Gal 3:20 A mediator is not a mediator of one.<of one only> But God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promise of God? God forbid.{Howbeit} If there had been a law given which could have given life: then no doubt righteousness should have come by the law:
Gal 3:22 but the scripture concluded all things under sin, that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ, should be given unto them that believe.
Gal 3:23 Before that faith came, we were kept and shut up under the law, unto the faith which should afterward be declared.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore<Thus> the law was our schoolmaster unto the time of Christ, that we might be made righteous by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, now are we no longer under a schoolmaster.<no more under the schoolmaster>
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the sons<children> of God, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all ye that<For as many of you as> are baptised, have put Christ on you.{put on Christ.}
Gal 3:28 Now is there no jew, neither greek:{is ther no Iewe nether gentile:} there is neither{nether} bond, neither{ner} free: there is neither man, neither{ner} woman: for all are one thing in Christ Jesu.{but ye are all one thing in Christ Iesu}
Gal 3:29 If ye be Christ's,{Christes} then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs by promise.<according to the promise> |
_________________
| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
Last edited by JAdmin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:18 pm; edited 13 times in total |
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JAdmin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: sword with two edges |
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And speaking of promises:
? And to the angel{messenger} of the congregation in Pergamos write: This saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges. I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Sathan's seat is, and thou keepest my name and hast not denied my faith. And in my days Antipas was a faithful witness of mine, which was slain among you where sathan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee: that thou hast there, they that maintain, the doctrine of Balaam which taught in Balak, to put occasion of sin before the children of Israel, that they should eat of meat dedicated unto idols, and to commit fornication. Even so hast thou them that maintain the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. But repent{be converted} or else I will come to{unto} thee shortly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.{mought} Let him that hath ears hear what the spirit sayth unto the congregations: To him that overcometh will I give to eat Manna that is hid, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth, saving he that receiveth it.
((--Rev 2:12-17--))
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| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
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heman
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Location: Joplin, MO, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Phil 4:13 (3956)παωτα (2480)ισχυευω εν τω (1743)ενδυναμουντι με. Codex Vaticanus (B),and( Codex Sinaiticus ),(Codicem Alexandrinum).
All things I am Strong in the (one) strengthening me.
That is the actual reading!!! The word "one" is implied but is not actually there.
1881 Westcott-Hort :
13παντα ισχυω εν τω ενδυναμουντι με
(The Message) translates it as:
Whatever I have, wherever I am, I can make it through anything in the One who makes me who I am.
Darby Translation has:
13I have strength for all things in him that gives me power.
Holman Christian Standard reads:
13 I am able to do all things through Him [b] who strengthens me.
New International Version:
13 I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD |
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JAdmin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:09 am Post subject: A textcritical complaint |
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Do you disregard the plethora of truthful evidence passed from one generation to another? like:
The Byzantine Text (4th Century)
Erasmus, Stephens (Estienne 1550), Elzevir 1624
Being from sources (and faithful compilation) at distant territories (at which time, travel was not easy) yet amazingly agree with eachother as the original received text majority, yea like:
Phi 4:13 παντα ισχυω εν τω ενδυναμουντι με χριστω
The same can't be said for translations of questionable manuscripts based on Codex Vaticanus (B),and( Codex Sinaiticus ),(Codicem Alexandrinum) because they all disagree with one another in too many places, and in turn disagree with the majority received text a thousand fold.
And why would there ironically be such a complaint on the codex Vaticanus margin at Heb. 1:3 stating:
| Quote: | αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει
Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it! |
Such a strong complaint very well can apply to John 1:18 to have taken out the only begotten son {ο μονογενης υιος} even substituting it with a begotten god [θεος] (as discussed before), and now Philippians 4:13 to have omitted Christ {χριστω}.
| Description: |
| Codex Vaticanus comment at Heb 1:3 |
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| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
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heman
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: A textcritical complaint |
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| JAdmin wrote: | Do you disregard the plethora of truthful evidence passed from one generation to another? like:
The Byzantine Text (4th Century)
Erasmus, Stephens (Estienne 1550), Elzevir 1624
Being from sources (and faithful compilation) at distant territories (at which time, travel was not easy) yet amazingly agree with eachother as the original received text majority, yea like:
Phi 4:13 παντα ισχυω εν τω ενδυναμουντι με χριστω
The same can't be said for translations of questionable manuscripts based on Codex Vaticanus (B),and( Codex Sinaiticus ),(Codicem Alexandrinum) because they all disagree with one another in too many places, and in turn disagree with the majority received text a thousand fold.
And why would there ironically be such a complaint on the codex Vaticanus margin at Heb. 1:3 stating:
| Quote: | αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει
Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it! |
Such a strong complaint very well can apply to John 1:18 to have taken out the only begotten son {ο μονογενης υιος} even substituting it with a begotten god [θεος] (as discussed before), and now Philippians 4:13 to have omitted Christ {χριστω}. |
Manuscripts:
Papyrus 46 Papyrus 66 Sinaiticus (א) Alexandrinus (A) Vaticanus (B) Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) Bezae Cantabrigiensis (D) Claromontanus (D)
Heb 1:3. Omit "by himself" before "purged". G L T Tr A WH N NA
Phil 4:13. Omit "Christ" and render 'through him that strengtheneth'. G L T Tr A W WH N NA
G Griesbach 1805
L Lachmann 1842
T Tischendorf 1869
Tr Tregelles 1857
A Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
W Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870
WH Westcott & Hort 1881
NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
HF Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985
ALL the above scholars dis-agree with your assumptive statements!
The phrase "uncial MSS", refers to all of the important old manuscripts of the Greek text made prior to the tenth century, which are written in large capital letters, called "uncial" script.
New Testament, 1526. William Tyndale, based upon Erasmus 1522, with reference to the Latin Vulgate.
It is now widely accepted by textual scholars that the selection of manuscripts available to Erasmus was quite limited ? due partly to his time constraints, partly to geographic isolation before high-speed transit, and partly to the fact that many important texts were as yet undiscovered ? being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality.
The majority of textual critical scholars have adopted an eclectic approach to the Greek New Testament, with the most weight given to the earliest extant manuscripts, which are mainly Alexandiran in character, thus breaking with the Textus Receptus in numerous places.
Erasmus, 1516. Desiderius Erasmus, Dutch Catholic scholar and humanist noted for Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale, and "Praise of Folly," in which he ridiculed the hypocritical churchmen of his day.
His first edition of the Greek New Testament appeared in 1516, when he was 50 years old. The Reformation broke out in Germany five years later, and many expected him to join the Protestants; but he did not share their theological convictions, and preferred to remain safely in the church of Rome.
Erasmus' Greek text was based upon three of the cursive manuscripts 10 to 15th Century and not the "uncial MSS", of all the important old manuscripts of the Greek text made prior to the tenth century.
He also made much use of his notes on various readings of the Latin Vulgate, of Patristic quotations, and of other (unspecified) Greek copies he had met with over the years, which he had compiled in preparation for his revision of the Latin Vulgate.
Erasmus obtained what manuscripts he could find on short notice; despite lack of support in Greek copies. For example,
Acts 8:37 (And Philip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God) has almost no Greek manuscript support, but Erasmus inserted it because it was in the Vulgate.
In Acts 9:5-6, the words it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him
are imported from Acts 26:14 and 22:10, and appear in no Greek copy at all here, although they are represented in the Vulgate.
However, 1 John 5:7-8 the words in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, which express the doctrine of the Trinity more clearly than any in Scripture, are omitted but were added in a later revision.
Some of these factitious readings passed into the later texts of Estienne, Elzevir, and Beza, and are represented in the King James version.
Erasmus adopted many readings of the Complutensian Polyglot.
Stunica, 1522, James Lopez of Stunica. Commonly called the Complutensian Polyglot. from manuscripts of the Vatican library. But an examination of the text reveals that, despite the claims, the Complutensian text was based upon manuscripts quite as ordinary and modern as those used by Erasmus.
1 John 5:8 shows a strange contempt for the Greek text; it was not to be found in any Greek copy. (Sturz, 1984. Harry A. Sturz, The Byzantine Text) He argues that the "Byzantine text-type" of these manuscripts is an independent witness to the original text, and ought to be given as much weight as the so-called Alexandrian text represented in Codex Vaticanus.
The third edition (1522) was used by William Tyndale in his English translation (see Tyndale 1526). The text of the fourth and fifth edition (1527, 1535) was closely followed by Robert Estienne (Stephens 1550) in his influential third edition (1550), which in turn provided the basis for all editions later published by Beza (1565-98), subsequently followed by the translators of the King James version.
The editions of Elzevir (1624, 1633) also derived from Erasmus 1527, as mediated by Estienne and Beza. Erasmus' text therefore became the foundation for nearly all editions and translations of the Greek text published for two centuries afterwards.
Elzevir, 1624. [Isaac Elzevir], Dutch printers and publishers, Novum Testamentum Gr?ce practically a reprint of the text of Beza 1565. The Elzevirs' 1633 edition became known as the "Textus Receptus".
Estienne, 1546. Robert Estienne, Novum Testamentum Gr?ce, a French printer, called Stephens in England, followed Erasmus' fourth edition (1527), but with many departures from it according to the Complutensian edition (see Stunica 1522).
Although Estienne professed to have collated them himself, it is now known that this was done by his son Henry, who in his collation (which is very defective), has since been identified by scholars: they are mostly of the ordinary modern type, such as were easily available in Paris, with one notable exception; It appears that one of Estienne's manuscripts (the one he says came from Italy) was the Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis , The Greek text is quite peculiar, with many interpolations found nowhere else, a few remarkable omissions, and a capricious tendency to rephrase sentences.
1 John 5:7, an error in the placement of brackets led readers to believe that all seven of the manuscripts collated by Estienne for the General Epistles included most of the disputed clause relative to the three heavenly witnesses, when in fact none of them contained the clause at all.
_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD |
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JAdmin
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| heman wrote: | Papyrus 46 Papyrus 66 Sinaiticus (א) Alexandrinus (A) Vaticanus (B) Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) Bezae Cantabrigiensis (D) Claromontanus (D)
Heb 1:3. Omit "by himself" before "purged". G L T Tr A WH N NA
Phil 4:13. Omit "Christ" and render 'through him that strengtheneth'. G L T Tr A W WH N NA
G Griesbach 1805
L Lachmann 1842
T Tischendorf 1869
Tr Tregelles 1857
A Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
W Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870
WH Westcott & Hort 1881
NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
HF Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985
ALL the above scholars dis-agree with your assumptive statements!
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The scribal complaint is not assumptive, but raises very serious questions and problems for those that put their trust in them.
| Code: | On page 1512, the beginning of Hebrews, an curious note appears, which is mentioned by Bruce M. Metzger in his NTTC book. A later (minuscule aera) scribe complains about a change of the text of Heb 1:3:
"αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει"
"Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!"
The note probably refers to the change of φανερων to the standard reading φερων in Heb 1:3. The letters "A" and "N" look different. The scribe of the note probably changed the correction back to the original reading.
It is also interesting to mention that on the right side an umlaut appears. This probably refers to the word-order change των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος to ποιησαμενος των αμαρτιων.
This umlaut is on the "wrong" side. The question now is: Is it on the wrong side because on the left is this note? This would have serious consequences for the dating.
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http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/note1512.html
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Nevertheless, it is fashionable among modern scholars/historians to claim that their Bibles come from all of those Greek Manuscripts that are old. That's somewhat true, but only because something is old doesn't mean that it is true "or truer". Compare for yourself and you'll find that those Manuscripts disagree with 95% of the bible as a whole, and then disagree also with 5 % of your manuscripts that disagree with each other.
And notwithstanding, my trust is not in scholars.
| Psalms 118:8 | | It is better to trust in the LORD, than to put any confidence in man. |
I acknowledge the sovereign providence of the Lord God.
________________
Ironically in regards to:
| 1 John 5:7-8 | | 7(For there are three which bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the wholy ghost. And these three are one.) 8And there are three which bear record (in earth:) the spirit, and water, and blood: and these three are one. |
Already was discussed that this doesn't neccessarily speak of any trinity supposition, but HOW the Lord thy God witnesses. (see post: translated perception)
Otherwise the proceeding verse would make no sense:
| 1 John 5:9 | | If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God, ([that is greater]) which he testified of his son. |
No wonder this verse is under attack everytime textual criticism is brought up, because it rebukes the worldly principalities of making the witness of men greater than the witness given by God.
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| Heman wrote: | | It is now widely accepted by textual scholars that the selection of manuscripts available to Erasmus was quite limited ? due partly to his time constraints, partly to geographic isolation before high-speed transit, and partly to the fact that many important texts were as yet undiscovered ? being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality. |
Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be, which go in thereat.
But strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life: and few there be, that find it. --Mat 7:13-14
_________________
| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
Last edited by JAdmin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:20 pm; edited 13 times in total |
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JAdmin
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Posts: 279
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Post Under construction !
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| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
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heman
Banned!
Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JAdmin wrote: | | heman wrote: | Papyrus 46 Papyrus 66 Sinaiticus (א) Alexandrinus (A) Vaticanus (B) Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) Bezae Cantabrigiensis (D) Claromontanus (D)
Heb 1:3. Omit "by himself" before "purged". G L T Tr A WH N NA
Phil 4:13. Omit "Christ" and render 'through him that strengtheneth'. G L T Tr A W WH N NA
G Griesbach 1805
L Lachmann 1842
T Tischendorf 1869
Tr Tregelles 1857
A Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
W Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870
WH Westcott & Hort 1881
NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
HF Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985
ALL the above scholars dis-agree with your assumptive statements!
|
The scribal complaint is not assumptive, but raises very serious questions and problems for those that put their trust in them.
| Code: | On page 1512, the beginning of Hebrews, an curious note appears, which is mentioned by Bruce M. Metzger in his NTTC book. A later (minuscule aera) scribe complains about a change of the text of Heb 1:3:
"αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει"
"Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!"
The note probably refers to the change of φανερων to the standard reading φερων in Heb 1:3. The letters "A" and "N" look different. The scribe of the note probably changed the correction back to the original reading.
It is also interesting to mention that on the right side an umlaut appears. This probably refers to the word-order change των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος to ποιησαμενος των αμαρτιων.
This umlaut is on the "wrong" side. The question now is: Is it on the wrong side because on the left is this note? This would have serious consequences for the dating.
------
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/note1512.html
|
Nevertheless, it is fashionable among modern scholars/historians to claim that their Bibles come from all of those Greek Manuscripts that are old. That's somewhat true, but only because something is old doesn't mean that it is true "or truer". Compare for yourself and you'll find that those Manuscripts disagree with 95% of the bible as a whole, and then disagree also with 5 % of manuscripts (that disagree with each other).
And notwithstanding, my trust is not in scholars.
| Psalms 118:8 | | It is better to trust in the LORD, than to put any confidence in man. |
I acknowledge the sovereign providence of the Lord God.
________________
Ironically in regards to:
| 1 John 5:7-8 | | 7(For there are three which bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the wholy ghost. And these three are one.) 8And there are three which bear record (in earth:) the spirit, and water, and blood: and these three are one. |
Already was discussed that this doesn't neccessarily speak of any trinity supposition, but HOW the Lord thy God witnesses. (see post: translated perception)
Otherwise the proceeding verse would make no sense:
| 1 John 5:9 | | If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God, ([that is greater]) which he testified of his son. |
No wonder this verse is under attack everytime textual criticism is brought up, because it rebukes the worldly principalities of making the witness of men greater than the witness given by God.
----------------------
| Heman wrote: | | It is now widely accepted by textual scholars that the selection of manuscripts available to Erasmus was quite limited ? due partly to his time constraints, partly to geographic isolation before high-speed transit, and partly to the fact that many important texts were as yet undiscovered ? being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality. |
Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be, which go in thereat.
But strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life: and few there be, that find it. --Mat 7:13-14 |
| Quote: | | των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος to ποιησαμενος των αμαρτιων. |
The positioning of πιοησαμενος is correct and reflects the "uncial MSS", as well as the positioning as shown. I would draw to your attention the word, , φανερων (5320) which is misspelled by the translation of the later MSS.
In regards to the 13 φανερων B3 deletis litteris αν dedit φερων. Post vero, saec. fere 13., fuit qui restitueret αν addito circulflexo super ω (φανερων). And your praeterea idem haec adscripsit: | Quote: | αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες το παλαιον, μη μεταποιει"
"Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!" |
Actually reads:
?Unlearned and knave are you unaware the old is not amended?
| Quote: | | The note probably refers to the change of φανερων to the standard reading φερων in Heb 1:3. The letters "A" and "N" look different. The scribe of the note probably changed the correction back to the original reading. |
No the φανερων(5320) is correct and is so noted fuit qui restitueret αν. The original spelling is just like the Vaticanus B and reflects the translation of the English word, ?manifestly?.
| Quote: | It is also interesting to mention that on the right side an umlaut appears. This probably refers to the word-order change των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος to ποιησαμενος των αμαρτιων.
This umlaut is on the "wrong" side. The question now is: Is it on the wrong side because on the left is this note? This would have serious consequences for the dating. |
You are correct it is on the wrong side but it reflects the words ?δι εαυτου? through himself, which is not a part of the originals as I have already mentioned. That is why the remarks on the left were made.
Here is the actual ?word for word? Greek to English translation with the explanation being translated below this one.
?Hebrews 1:3
Who being a radiance of the glory and the impression of the foundation (5287) of him manifestly (5320) and the things all by the word of the power of him a cleansing (2512) of the sins have made sat down...
Which being translated reads: ?Who being a radiance of the glory and impression of him manifestly of the foundation and all things by the word of the power of him a cleansing of sins has made sat down??
Manuscripts:
Papyrus 46 Papyrus 66 Sinaiticus (א) Alexandrinus (A) Vaticanus (B)
Greisbach notes: Omit δι εαυτου
Heb 1:3. Omit "by (δι εαυτου) himself" before "purged". G L T Tr A WH N NA
Phil 4:13. Omit "Christ" and render 'through him that strengtheneth'. G L T Tr A W WH N NA
_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD |
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JAdmin
Moderator
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: Judge nothing before the time |
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| Heman wrote: | You are correct it is on the wrong side but it reflects the words ?δι εαυτου? through himself, which is not a part of the originals as I have already mentioned. That is why the remarks on the left were made.
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How do you know which part is of the original? when there is no such original but only copies of copies. The original to me are the right copies (in God's sovereign providence throughout time) like the 4th Century Byzantine (regardless if it lacked that text, nonetheless includes the majority of the text agreement with itself) that faithfully agrees with other ancient texts' testimony like the Old Latin Bible Italic (AD157) kept by devout believers in Italy way before Erasmus that amazingly have 1John 5:7 fully intact.
Notwithstanding, the Heb 1:3 vaticanus textcritical complaint is a note quoting Dr. Wieland Willker from his website. Alas, seeing how you and modern scholars disagree with such observations.. do you blame me for choosing to stay away from such doubts.
Rather I have every right to moreso acknowlege the received texts like the Byzantine text (4th Century) and the agreeing compilation of the received texts as a faithful representation of the New Testament. Yea man may fall short of the glory of God even in preserving texts, but that does not change the fact that God is sovereign and will do what he will.
Heb 1:3 ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξης και χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου φερων τε τα παντα τω ρηματι της δυναμεως αυτου (tsb)δι (tsb)εαυτου καθαρισμον (tsb)ποιησαμενος των αμαρτιων (a)ποιησαμενος (tsb)ημων εκαθισεν εν δεξια της μεγαλωσυνης εν υψηλοις
| Quote: | t - Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
s - Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
b - Byzantine Majority as identified by Von Soden and Hoskier, and utilized by Hodges & Farstad, Robinson & Pierpont.
a - Alexandrian as identified by United Bible Society, 3rd ed.
Resource: Greek Text Tagged
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Only God can shew you the way via Christ, even thorow whatever manuscript.
I know nought by myself: yet am I not thereby justified. It is the Lord that judgeth me.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, which will lighten things that are hid in darkness: and open the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise of God.
--1Co 4:4-5
That's why i have learned not to point fingers at other's faults, or judge them prematurely, let them be Roman Catholic, Protestant or otherwise.
| 1 Corinthians 14:38 | | But and if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. |
Thus I held back my prior post as a draft under construction:
| Quote: |
Does God accept peaceofferings from worldly scholarship?
Iesus answered and said unto him: hence from me Satan. For it is written. Thou shalt honour thy Lord God, and him only serve. -Luke 4:8
Have these things hence, and make not my father's house, an house of merchandise.
-Joh 2:!6
| Psalms 69:9 | | For the zeal of thine house hath even eaten me, and the rebukes of them that rebuked thee, is fallen upon me. |
| Psalms 119:139 | | My zeal hath even consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. |
For thus saith the Lord:
For wheresoever your treasure is, there are your hearts also.
The light of the body is thine eye. Wherefore if thine eye be clearly sincere, the whole body shall be full of light.
But and if thine eye be malign, then is all thy body full of tares. Wherefore if the light that is in thee, be tares: how many are such tares?
No man can serve two masters. For either he shall hate the one, and love the other: or else he shall lean to the one, and despise that other. Ye cannot serve God and filthy lucre.
-Mat 6:21-24
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars?<thistles?>
-Mat 7:16
Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy against the holy ghost, shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the holy ghost, it shall not be forgiven him: no, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good also, or else make the tree evil, and his fruit evil also. For the tree is known by his fruit.
-Mat 12:31-33 |
Because it also just brings to remembrance:
| Code: |
? Another similitude put he forth, unto them saying: The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, there came his foe, and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. When the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. The servants came to the householder, and said unto him. Sir sowest not thou good seed in thy close, from whence then hath it tares? He said to them, the envious man hath done this. Then the servants said unto him: wilt thou then that we go and gather it? and he said, nay, lest while ye go about to weed out the tares, ye pluck up also with them the wheat by the roots: let both grow to gether till harvest come, and in time of harvest, I will say yea unto my reapers, gather ye first the tares, and bind them in sheaves to be brent: but gather the wheat into my barn.
-Mat. 15:25-30 |
Besides.. the Bible as a whole is a witness of itself and if something is different, there's always another passage where the spirit of the word will reveal if it's true. However manuscripts render a passage, the devout ought to prove the weight of a statement as it's evidence too. For ensample like:
| Hebrews 1:3-4 | | 3Which son being the brightness of his glory, and very image of his substance, bearing up all things with the word of his power, hath in his own person purged our sins, and is sitten on the right hand of the majesty on high, 4and is more excellent than the angels, inasmuch as he hath by inheritance obtained an excellenter name then have they. |
It is a very clear statement (without a shadow of a doubt) that the son is the brightness of God's glory!
| Genesis 5:1-3 | | 1This is the book of the generation of man, in the day when God created man and made him after the similitude of God. 2Male and female made he them, and called their names man, in the day when they were created. 3And when Adam was an hundred and thirty year old, he begat a son after his likeness and similitude: and called his name Seth. |
| Proverbs 30:4 | | Who hath climbed up into heaven? Who hath come down from thence? Who hath holden the wind fast in his hand? Who hath comprehended the waters in a garment? Who hath set all the ends of the world? What is his name, or his son's name? Canst thou tell? |
| Code: | Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself was about thirty year of age when he began, being as men supposed(MT: And he was taken for) the son of Joseph: which Joseph was the son of Heli:
...
Luk 3:38 which was the son of Enos: which was the son of Seth: which was the son of Adam: which was the son of God. |
Thus the scriptural test to verify if the statement is true as a whole is:
I. Does it line up according to the law and the testimony?
II. If ought seem changed, or not altogether agreeing with the Greek, let the finder of the fault consider the Hebrew phrase or manner of speech left in the Greek words.
Especially with epistels of Paul because i perceive his first language was Hebrew, (and he must of expressively thought likewise even in his Greek) .. otherwise the high captain in Acts would not of said:
| Quote: | Act 21:37 And as Paul should have been carried into the castle; He said unto the high captain: May I speak unto thee? Which said: Canst thou speak greek?
Act 21:38 Art not thou that Egyptian which before these days, made an uproar, and led out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
Act 21:39 But Paul said: I am a man which am a jew of Tharsus a city in Cicill, a citizen of no vile city, I beseech thee suffer me to licence; {to speak unto the people.}
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_________________
| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
Last edited by JAdmin on Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:17 pm; edited 12 times in total |
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