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Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Reply with quote

In the Gospell according to Matthew Chapter VII the King James Version in the New Testament kept the authorized translation:

(KJV) Mt 7:17-18 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:17-18
17Even so every good tree, bringeth forth good fruit. But a corrupt tree, bringeth forth evil fruit.  18A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit: nor yet a bad tree can bring forth good fruit.  


But it is kind of eery that the KJV has "evil" as an edition in the Old Testament translation; for ensample:

(KJV) Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

*Tyndale (Rogers, Coverdale, Cranmer) wholy bible:
Isaiah 45:7
It is I that created the light, and darkness, I make peace, and trouble: yea even I the LORD do all these things.


hmm.. Does the LORD create evil? (that is "evil?" as people may misunderstand the word's intent)

Code:
The Hebrew word is: רע
Transliterated: ra`
Strong:  H7451
 from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):--  adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure),  distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X   great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured),  + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not  please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex,  wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong.  (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).   H7489

רעע
Strong:  H7489
Transliterated: ra`a`
 a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking  to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing,  i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally):--afflict,  associate selves (by mistake for 7462), break (down, in  pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat,  man), show self  friendly (by mistake for 7462), do harm, (do)  hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish,  still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.


Howbeit (before the KJV, Geneva & Bishop's Bible editions) the line of the original Authorized editions (Great Bible, Matthew's Bible, Coverdale Bible) instead perceived to keep the original English translation instead of "evil" meaning as a type of terrible "trouble" for divers passages.

Quote:

Here's a comparison how that the first Authorised English Bibles do not have evil in divers places, til later editions..
Quote:

For ensample, originally the English translation of Isaiah 45:7 started as:
Code:
(Coverdale-1535) It is I yt created the light and darcknes, I make peace and trouble: Yee euen I the LORDE do all these thinges.

(Matthews Bible 1537) It is I that created the lyght and darcknes, I make peace & trouble yee euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.

(Great Bible-1540) It is I that created the lyght [and] darcknes. I make peace and trouble: yee, euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.

(Bishops-1568)  It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.


Till ..
Code:
(Geneva-1560)  I forme the (h) light and create darkenes: I make peace & create euill: I the Lord do all these things.
(h) I fond {sound, send or found?} peace and warre, prosperitie & adversitie, as Amos 3:6

(KJV-1611)  I forme the light, and create darkenesse: I make peace, and create euill: I the Lord do all these things.


Quote:
Likewise with Amos 3:6-8
Code:
(Coverdale 1535) Crie they out Alarum with the trompet in the cite, and the people not afrayed? Commeth there eny plage in a cite, without it be the LORDES doinge?

(Matthews 1537) Crye they oute alarum wyth the trompet in ye cytye, and the people not afrayed? Commeth there anye plage in a cytye withoute it be the Lordes doynge?

(Great Bible 1549) Crye they out Alarum with the trompet in the cytie, and ye people not afrayed? Commeth there eny plage in a cytie without it be the Lordes doynge?


Till ..
Code:
(Geneva 1560)
Am 3:6 Or (a) shall a trumpet be blowen in the citie, and the people be not afraide? or shall there (b) be euil in a citie, and the Lord hath not done it?
(a) Shall the Prophets threaten Gods iudgements and the people not be afraide?
(b) Doeth any aduersitie come without Gods appoyntment? Isa.45.7.

(in this instance the Bishop's Bible also edited it to evil)

(Bishop's Bible 1568) 3:6 Or shall a trumpet be blowen in the citie, & the people be not afrayde? or shall there be euyll in a citie, and the Lorde hath not done it?

(KJV 1611) 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blowen in the citie, and the people not be afraid? shall there be euill in a citie, and the Lord hath not done it? {be afraid: or, run together? the LORD?: or, shall not the L.doe somewhat?}



Quote:

And last but not least here's a comparison of Job 2:10 from the first English Translations from the original tongues that originally translated it:
Code:
(Coverdale-1535) But Iob sayde vnto her: Thou speakest like a foolish woma. Seinge we haue receaued prosperite at the honde of God, wherfore shulde we not be content with aduersite also? In all these thinges, dyd not Iob synne with his lippes.

(Matthews 1537) But Iob sayde vnto her: Thou speakest lyke a folysh woman. Seynge we haue receyued prosperite at the hand of God, wherfore shuld we not be content with aduersyte also? In all these thynges, dyd not Iob synne with his lyppes.

(Great Bible 1549) But Iob sayde vnto her: Thou speakest lyke a folysh woman. Shal we receaue prosperite at the hand of God, and not receaue aduersite? (See Iob.i.d. {1:16-19} ) In all these thinges, did not Iob synne with his lyppes.


later edited to.. (in this instance the Bishop's Bible also edited it to evil)
Code:
(Geneva-1560)  But he said vnto her, Thou speakest like a foolish woman: what? shall we receiue good at the hande of God, and not (n) receiue euill? In all this did not Iob sinne with his (o) lippes.
(n) That is, to be pacient in adversitie, as we reioice, when he sendeth prosperitie, & so to acknowledge him to be bothe merciful and juste.
(o) He so brideled his affections, that his tongue through impaciencie did not murmure against God.

(Bishops-1568)  But he sayde vnto her, Thou speakest like a foolish woman: shal we receaue good at the hande of God, and not receaue euyll? In all these thinges did not Iob sinne with his lippes.

(KJV-1611)  But he said vnto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh; what? shall wee receiue good at the hand of God, and shall wee not receiue euill? In all this did not Iob sinne with his lippes.





Quote:
intermission
The first English translation from the original tongues of the book of Job has a deep insight to all of this.
http://faithofgod.net/tanak/job.htm

I am the way, the verity, (the truthful) and life. (the Resurrection.) No man cometh unto the father, but by me. -Iesus Jo. 14:6
http://faithofgod.net/WTNT/matthew_7.html
http://faithofgod.net/TyNT/lk.htm#24:1



Diligently taking into account that the real LORD God is sovereign in deed and verity:
The reasoning to have said the translation of the word "evil" to be
eerie at Isaiah 45:7 (even Job 2:10) from the Wycliffe, Geneva, KJV,
(that ricocheted to Modern Bibles with no loving knowledge; that is, subtly misunderstanding the chastising of God;) is that "evil" in the Old Latin sense according to the Coverdale translation really is a word that also means trouble and even travail, plague, adversity and wrath; that is according to purpose (in the sense of the LORD: terrible trouble according to His good purpose.)

Thus "evil" (according to the original Hebrew word) can have divers meaning depending on the sovereign manner or provident matter at hand.
That bears to mind the word of the Lord:
John 9
1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth;  2And his disciples asked him saying: Master, who did sin: this man, or his father and mother, that he was born blind?  3Jesus answered: Neither this man hath sinned, nor yet his father and mother: but that the works of God should be shewed on him.  4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day. The night cometh, when no man can work.  5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.  6As soon as he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and rubbed the clay on the eyes of the blind,  7and said unto him: Go wash thee in the pool of Siloe (which by interpretation, signifieth sent.) He went his way and washed, and came again seeing.  8The neighbours, and they that had seen him before how that he was a beggar said: Is not this he that sat and begged?  9Some said: this is he. Other said: he is like him. He himself said: I am even he.  10They said unto him: How are thine eyes opened then?  11He answered and said: The man that is called Jesus, made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me: Go to the pool Siloe, and wash. I went and washed and received my sight.  12They said unto him: where is he? He said: I cannot tell.  13Then brought they to the pharisees, him that a little before was blind.  14( It was the Sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.)  15Then again the pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them: He put clay upon mine eyes; And I washed, and I see.  16Then said some of the pharisees: this man is not of God, because he keepeth not the Sabbath day. Other said: how can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was strife among them.  17Then spake they unto the blind again: What sayest thou of him, because he hath opened thine eyes? And he said: He is a prophet.  18 The jews did not believe of the fellow, how that he was blind, and received his sight: until they had called the father and mother of him that had received his sight.  19And they asked them saying: Is this your son, whom ye say was born blind? How doth he now see then?  20His father and mother answered them and said: we wot well that this is our son, and that he was born blind:  21But by what means he now seeth, that can we not tell or who hath opened his eyes can we not tell. He is old enough, ask him, let him answer for himself, of things that pertain to himself.  22Such words spake his father, and mother, because they feared the jews, for the jews had conspired already that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be excommunicate out of the Synagogue.  23Therefore said his father and mother: he is old enough, ask him.  24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him: Give God the praise, we know that this man is a sinner.  25He answered and said: Whether he be a sinner or no, I cannot tell: One thing I am sure of, that I was blind, and now I see.  26Then said they to him again: What did he to thee? How opened he thine eyes?  27He answered them, I told you yer-while; And ye did not hear. Wherefore would ye hear it again? Will ye also be his disciples?  28Then rated they him, and said: Thou art his disciple. We are Moses' disciples.  29We are sure that God spake with Moses. This fellow we know not from whence he is.  30The man answered, and said unto them: this is a marvelous thing that ye wot nere whence he is, and yet hath he opened mine eyes.  31We know well enough that God heareth no sinners: But if any man be a worshipper of God: and do what his will is, him heareth he.  32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.  33If this man were not of God, he could have done no thing.  34They answered and said unto him: thou art altogether born in sin: and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.  35Jesus heard that they had excommunicated him: and as soon as he had found him he said unto him: dost thou believe on the son of God?  36He answered and said: And who is it Lord, that I might believe on him?  37And Jesus said unto him: Thou hast seen him, and he it is that talketh with thee.  38And he said: Lord I believe: And worshipped him.  39Jesus said: I am come unto judgement, into this world: that they which see not, might see, and they which see might be made blind.  40And some of the pharisees which were with him, heard these words and said unto him: Are we then blind?  41Jesus said unto them, if ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say we see, therefore your sin remaineth.    

Yea the living God who is father of our Lord Iesu Christ in his
sovereign providence has the wholy right for His will to be done on
earth as it is in heaven, since only He sees the whole picture,
while we only know in part.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13
12Now we see in a glass even in a dark speaking: but then shall we see face to face. Now I know unperfectly: but then shall I know even as I am known.  13Now abideth faith, hope, and love, even these three: but the chief of these is love.  

1 John 3:2-3
2Dearly beloved, now are we the sons of God, and yet it hath not appear what we shall be. But we know that when it shall appear, we shall be like him. For we shall see him as he is.  3And every man that hath this hope in him, purgeth himself, even as he is pure.  


2 Corinthians 3:6
which hath made us able to minister the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit: For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.



According to the Scriptures, the Most Highest God is so very
longsuffering with ever lovingkindness, yea that even suffereth the
God of this world for a big lesson to be learned.

For ensample, remember the patience of Job:
Job 2:3
Then said the LORD unto Sathan: Hast thou not considered my servant Job, how that he is an innocent and virtuous man such one as feareth God, and escheweth evil, and that there is none like him in the land? But thou movedst me against him, to punish him: yet is it in vain, for he continueth still in his godlyness.


Shews that God never intended to do any "evil" harm to Job (rather he greatly had blessed him) but Sathan moved the LORD against him without a cause taking advantage of the fact that the LORD is the God of His word (as the account of the Job book goes). How much more troublous adversity with other accounts?

Luke 22:31-32
31And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired you, to sift you, as it were wheat:  32But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not. And when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.  


Bears to mind:

John 5:45
Suppose not, that I will accuse you to my father. There is one that accuseth you, verily Moses in whom ye trust.


Now notice:

Job 2:7-10
7So went Sathan forth from the LORD, and smote Job with marvelous sore boils, from the sole of the foot unto his crown.  8So that he sat upon the ground in the ashes, and scraped off the filth of his sores with a potsherd.  9Then said his wife unto him: Dost thou continue in thy perfectness? curse God, and die.  10But Job said unto her: Thou speakest like a foolish woman. Seeing we have received prosperity at the hand of God, wherefore should we not be content with adversity also? In all these things, did not Job sin with his lips.  


Amazing how it is translated here with such verity.
This first English translation from the original tongues
instead of "evil" rendered it as "adversity".
This makes perfect sense, even taking into account
the reason for the question in
Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most Highest goeth not evil and good?

That verse is given in the form of a question to diligently ponder at.

What does "evil" here imply?

Ro 8:28 For we know well that all things work <|serve|> for the best unto them that love God, which also are called of purpose.

Diligently examining the whole passage:

La 3:37 ((Mem.)) What is he then that sayeth: there should something be done without the Lord's commandment:
La 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most Highest goeth not evil and good?
La 3:39 Wherefore then murmureth the living man: let him murmur at his own sin.

The Hebrew letter ((Mem)) is mentioned and further research reveals that it is the thirteenth letter; used as numeral 40 in postB. Heb.
Interesting that forty is mentioned in:

Ge 7:4 For seven days hence will I send rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights and will destroy all manner of things that I have made, from off the face of the earth.

Why was that?
(Ironic that Mem is the thirteenth letter):

Ge 6:5 And when the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was increased upon the earth, and that all the imagination and thoughts of his heart was only evil continually,
Ge 6:6 he repented that he had made man upon the earth and sorrowed in his heart.

The will of God is eloquently stated here:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack to fulfil his promise as some men count slackness: but is patient to us ward and would have no man lost, but would receive all men to repentance.

Ro 2:4 Other <Either> despisest thou the riches of his goodness and patience, and long sufferance? and rememberest not how that the kindness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
----

Also Notice in:
Ex 16:35 And the children of Israel ate manna forty year until they came unto a land inhabited. And so they ate Manna, even until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan,
Ex 16:36 and a gomer is the tenth part of an Epha.
Ex 17:1 And all the company of the children of Israel went on their journeys from the wilderness of Sin at the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Raphidim: where was no water for the people to drink.

Bears to mind, later on:

Ex 20:20 And Moses said unto the people fear not, for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be among you that ye sin not.

The number forty seems to be a number associated with tribulation, that bears to mind:

Ro 5:3 Neither do we so only: but also we rejoice in tribulation: For we know that tribulation bringeth patience,
Ro 5:4 patience bringeth fealing, fealing <experience, experience> bringeth hope.
Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed, <|is letteth us not come to confusion|> because the love that God hath unto us, <for the love of God> is shed abroad in our hearts, by the holy ghost, which is given unto us.

It is like as was pointed out at the forum discussing this topic:
"what we perceive as evil at times, may have higher functions than we see."

Here's another ensample how the word evil could be misunderstood:
Joshua 23:15-16
15And as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you: so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil until he have destroyed you from off this good land, which the LORD your God hath given you  16when ye have transgressed the appointment of the LORD your God, which he commanded you: and have gone and served strange gods, and bowed yourselves to them. Then shall the wrath of the LORD wax hot upon you, and ye shall perish quickly, from off the good land which he hath given you.  

Notice whose evil is being returned..

For ensamples, comparing even the "KJV" to the first English translation from the original tongues:

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (KJV Prov. 16:4)
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD doth all things for his own sake, yea and when he keepeth the ungodly for the day of wrath.


" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (KJV Jer. 4:6).
Jeremiah 4:6
Set up the token in Sion, speed you, and make no tarrying: for I will bring a great plague, and a great destruction from the north.


" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (KJV Jer. 6:19).
Jeremiah 6:19
Hear thou earth also: behold, I will cause a plague come upon this people, even the fruit of their own imaginations. For they have not been obedient unto my words and to my law, but abhorred them.


" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (KJV Jer. 18:11).
Jeremiah 18:11
Speak now therefore unto whole Juda, and to them that dwell at Jerusalem: Thus sayeth the LORD: Behold, I am devising a plague for you, and am taking a thing in hand against you. Therefore let every man turn from his evil way, take upon you the thing that is good, and do right.


" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (KJV Ecc. 1:13).
Ecclesiastes 1:13
applied my mind to seek out and search for the knowledge of all things that are done under heaven. Such travail and labor hath God given to the children of men, to exercise themselves therein.

"travail"


Notice also:

Amos 3:6
Cry they out Alarum with the trumpet in the city, and the people not afraid? Cometh there any plague in a city without it be the LORD's doing?


Instead of "evil", here the first English translation from the
original tongues properly translated it as "plague". Thus it brings
to attention that it is the active purpose behind something that
manners, because harm without a good cause is the ugly head of "evil"
running rampant specially with today's lawless understanding, such
as subtly attributing something to a broad word that can mean
anything to anybody, yea such as "terror".

Job 1:20-21
20Then Job stood up, and rent his clothes, shaved his head, fell down upon the ground, worshipped,  21and said: Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I turn thither again. The LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away, now blessed be the name of the LORD.  


Job 19:25-28
25For I am sure, that my redeemer liveth, and that I shall rise out of the earth in the latter day:  26that I shall be clothed again with this skin, and see God in my flesh.  27Yea I my self shall behold him, not with other but with these same eyes. My reins are consumed within me,  28when ye say: Why do not we persecute him? We have found an occasion against him.  


2 Corinthians 4:3-6
3If our Gospell be yet hid, it is hid among them that are lost,  4in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest should shine unto them the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, which is the image of God,  5for we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and preach ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.  6For it is God that commanded the light to shine out of darkness, which hath shined in our hearts, for to give the light of knowledge of the glorious God, in the face of Jesus Christ.  


Thus you may see why it is tumulus, yea very dire to believe the
most Highest God directly created "evil" in the sense people
understand the word today, even though he already knew about that
sad possibility from the very beginning.

1 John 1:5
And this is the tidings which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


In the first translation of the New Testament from the original
Tongues, in 1525 even suffering great persecution, W.T. gives an
interesting prologue, and eloquent states:
Quote:
The causes that moved me to translate, I thought better that others
should imagine, then that I should rehearse them. Moreover I
supposed it superfluous, for who is so blind tare why light should
be shewed to them that walk in darkness, where they cannot but
stumble, and where to stumble is the danger of eternal damnation,
other so despiteful that he would envy any man (I speak not his
brother) so necessary a thing, or so bedlam made to affirm that good
is the natural cause of blindness, and deafness to proceed out of
sight, and that lying should be grounded in troth and verity, and
not rather seen contrary, that light destroyeth darkness, and verity
reproveth all manner saying.


Also here's an interesting excerpt from W.T.'s preaface to the parable of the Wicked mammon:
Quote:

? The Scripture of God is good to teach and to improve. (2 Tim. iij. and 2 Thess. ij.) Paul speaking of Antichrist, saith, "Whom the Lord shall destroy with the spirit, or breath of his mouth;" that is, with the word of God. And (2Cor. x.) "The weapons of our war are not carnal things, (saith he) but mighty in God to cast down strongholds," and so forth; that is, to destroy high building of false doctrine. The word of God in that day whereof Paul speaketh, (1Cor. iij.) which shall declare all things, and that fire which shall try every man's work, and consume false doctrine: with that sword ought men sharply to fight, and not to rail with foolish rhymes. Let it not offend thee that some walk inordinately; let not the wickedness of Judas cause thee to despise the doctrine of his fellows. No man ought to think that Stephen was a false preacher because that Nicholas, which was chosen fellow with him (Acts vi.) to minister unto the widows, fell after into great heresies, as histories make mention. Good and evil go always together, one cannot be known without the other.
{NOTE how important it is to understand the meaning of the word Good and evil in order to comprehend that statement.}


Furthermore, the following verses also bear to mind:

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not, hath not known God: for God is love.


Ro. 13:10 Love hurteth not his neighbor: <|Love doth his neighbour
no evil|> Therefore is love the fulfilling of the law.

<|Love doth his neighbour no evil|> is according to the Old Latin
from Coverdale's translation edition of W.T. 1535; here evil is
portrayed as doing hurt with a wrong purpose which goes against what love represents.

Philippians 2:5-12
5Let the same mind be in you the which was in Christ Jesu:  6Which being in the shape of God, and thought it not robbery to be equal with God.  7Nevertheless he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the shape of a servant, and became like unto men, and was found in his apparel as a man.  8He humbled himself and became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.  9Wherefore God hath exalted him, and given him a name above all names:  10that in the name of Jesus should every knee bow, both of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under earth,  11and that all tongues should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord unto the praise of God the father.  12Wherefore my dearly beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not when I was present only, but now much more in mine absence, even so perform your own health with fear and trembling.  


And brings to attention:

Revelation 12:10-11
10And I heard a loud voice saying: in heaven is now made health and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: For he is cast down which accused them before God day and night:  11And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.  


Exodus 34 ...the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do...

Deuteronomy 7 ...you a mighty God and a terrible...

Deuteronomy 10 ...great God, a mighty and a terrible which regardeth no man's...

Jeremiah 30 ...sayeth the LORD: We hear a terrible cry, fear and disquietness...

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath none other temptation taken you, but such as followeth the nature of man. God is faithful, which shall not suffer you to be tempted above your strength: but shall in the midst of the temptation make a way to escape out.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Reply with quote

SA?TAN. The word itself, the Hebrew sa?ta?n, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam. 29:4; 2 Sam. 19:22; 1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Num. 22:22, 32; Ps. 109:6. This original sense is still found in our Lord?s application of the name to St. Peter in Matt. 16:23. It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, viz. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech. 2:1, and (without the article) in 1 Chron. 21:1.
The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".
Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra, clearly denied (devils) their existence. Their point of view eventually became the mainstream Jewish understanding.
The Greek word daemon, daemon, appears in the works of Plato and many other ancient authors, without the evil connotations apparent in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and in the Greek originals of the New Testament.
Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire.
One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic?you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.The notion of an angel having free will is alien to Judaism.
Free will requires the tension created by being a soul dwelling in a body. People can have free will, angels can't. There is a debate over whether they lack the potential for free will, or whether they simply percieve reality to clearly to have any choices to make. But in any case, without the fence-straddling of the human condition, there is no free will. HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.
Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7)
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
.

Consider this:[/b] If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent who spoke as moved just as Balaam in Nu 22:27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam?s anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
Nu 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Ha-Satan," the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on the subordinate position, on [b]the absence of all but delegated power
, of all terror and all grandeur in it's character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to ha-satan. The subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever
Of the nature and original state of "Ha-Satan",nothing is revealed in Scripture.
As to the time, cause, and manner of his fall Scripture again tells us nothing; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil one. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God?love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, that the opposites of these qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the Ha-satan.
The indirect action of ha-satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which it is designated in Scripture. It is called emphatically in the Hebrew sa?ta?n and is simply an "adversary," . The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and "set them at variance"; but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of "setting at variance by slander."
The subject of a test is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations (tests) of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in James 1:13-16, that "temptation," is properly so called, "sin".
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

The 'popular' image of the Devil has no Biblical basis.
The belief in huge creatures/monsters inhabiting the deep was widespread throughout the ancient world.
The sea serpent is a mythological and legendary marine animal that is traditionally thought to resemble an enormous snake. In the Old Testament there are several allusions to a primordial combat between God and a monstrous adversary variously named Leviathan or Rahab. At one place in the Old Testament, the Leviathan appears as a multi-headed sea serpent that is killed by God and given as food to the Hebrews in the wilderness.
Certain Jewish legends consider leviathan as an androgynous dragon that seduced Eve in its male form, and Adam in its female form.
In demonology a leviathan is any aquatic demon. They are great liars. Leviathans can also possess persons, being very difficult to exorcise; they try to possess every person, but especially women.
Some biblical scholars considered Leviathan to represent the pre-existent forces of chaos. In Psalm 74:13-14 it says "it was You who drove back the sea with Your might, who smashed the heads of the monsters in the waters; it was You who crushed the heads of Leviathan, who left him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. (JPS edition)" God drove back the waters of the pre-existent Earth (Genesis 1:2 "the earth being unformed and void with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water-" [JPS edition]) and destroyed the chaotic marine monster Leviathan in order to shape the unformed and void Earth in his liking.
DEMONIACS. This word is frequently used in the New Testament, and applied to persons suffering under the possession of a demon or evil spirit, such possession generally showing itself visibly in bodily disease or mental derangement.
It has been maintained by many persons that our Lord and the evangelists, in referring to demonical possession, spoke only in accommodation to the general belief of the Jews.
It is concluded that, since the symptoms of the affliction were frequently those of bodily disease (as dumbness, Matt. 9:32; blindness, Matt. 12:22; epilepsy, Mark 9:17-27), or those seen in cases of ordinary insanity (as in Matt. 8:28; Mark 5:1-5), the demoniacs were merely persons suffering under unusual diseases of body and mind. But demoniacs are frequently distinguished from those afflicted with bodily sickness, see Mark 1:32; 16:17, 18; Luke 6:17, 18; the same outward signs are sometimes referred to possession, sometimes merely to disease, comp. Matt. 4:24 with 17:15; Matt. 12:22 with Mark 7:32, etc.; the demons are represented as speaking in their own persons just like Ballam's donkey. Matt. 8:29; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 4:41, etc. All these things speak of a personal power of evil. Twice our Lord distinctly connects demoniacal possession with the adversary. Luke 10:18.
Lastly, the single fact recorded of the entrance of the demons at Gadara, Mark 5:10-14, into the herd of swine, and the effect which that entrance caused, is sufficient to overthrow the notion that our Lord and the evangelists do not assert or imply any objective reality of possession. We are led, therefore, to the ordinary and literal interpretation of these passages, that the subjects of the adversary, who, in the days of the Lord himself and his apostles especially, were permitted by God to exercise a direct influence over certain men.

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Reply with quote

Am very glad you brought up James, cause there's a great message there (for all of us) starting with chapter I:
James 1:1-27
1James the servant of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ, sendeth greeting to the twelve tribes which are scattered here and there.  2My brethren, count it exceeding joy when ye fall into divers temptations,  3remembering how that the trying of your faith bringeth patience:  4and let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and sound, that nothing be lacking unto you.   5If any that is among you lack wisdom, let him ask of God (which giveth to all men without doubleness, and casteth no man in the teeth:) and it shall be given him:  6but let him ask in faith, and waver not. For he that doubteth is like the waves of the sea, tossed of the wind, and carried with violence.  7Neither let that man think that he shall receive any thing of God.   8A wavering minded man is unstable in all his ways.  9Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted,  10and the rich in that he is made low. For even as the flower of the grass shall he vanish away.  11The son riseth with heat, and the grass is withered, and his flower fallen away, and the beauty of the fashion of it is perished: even so shall the rich man perish in his abundance.  12Happy is the man that endureth in temptation, for when he is tried he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.  13Let no man say when he is tempted that he is tempted of God: for God tempteth not unto evil: he tempteth no man:   14But every man is tempted drawn away, and enticed of his own concupiscence.  15Then when lust hath conceived, she bringeth forth sin, and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death.  16Err not my dear brethren.  17Every good gift, and every perfect gift, is from above and cometh down from the father of light, with whom is no variableness, neither is he changed unto darkness.  18Of his own will begat he us with the word of life, that we should be the first of his creatures.   19Wherefore dear brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath.  20For the wrath of man worketh not that which is righteous before God.  21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness, all superfluity of maliciousness, and receive with meekness the word that is grafted in you, which is able to save your souls:  22And see that ye be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.   23For if any hear the word, and do it not, he is like unto a man that beholdeth his bodily face in a glass.  24For as soon as he hath looked on himself, he goeth his way, and hath immediately forgotten what his fashion was:  25but whosoever looketh in the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein (if he be not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work) he shall be happy in his deed.  26If any man among you seem devout, and refrain not his tongue: but deceive his own heart, this man's devotion is in vain.  27Pure devotion and undefiled before God the father, is this: To visit the friendless, and widows in their adversity, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.  


In regards to any post reply (specially to one of this magnitude of importance) I'll just take James advice and try my utmost to be swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath. Yea because the word of verity itself (from one generation to another) already in Jesu Christ quickly taketh vengeance on all his enemies. For it is written: vengeance is mine, and I will reward saith the Lord.
That firstly brings to ALARUM:
Quote:
Luke 18:1-8
1He put forth a similitude unto them, signifying that men ought always to pray, and not to be weary,  2saying: There was a Judge in a certain city, which feared not God neither regarded man.  3And there was a certain widow in the same city, which came unto him saying: Avenge me of mine adversary.  4And a great while he would not. Afterward he said unto himself: Though I fear not God, nor care for man,  5yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest at the last she come, and rail on me.  6And the Lord said: hear what the unrighteous judge sayeth.  7And shall not God avenge his elect, which cry night and day unto him? Yea though he defer them:  8I tell you, he will avenge them, and that quickly. Nevertheless, when the son of man cometh, suppose ye, that he shall find faith on earth.  

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved avenge not yourselves but give room unto the wrath of God. For it is written: vengeance is mine, and I will reward saith the Lord.

Deuteronomy 32:35
Vengeance is mine and I will reward: their feet shall slide, when the time cometh. For the time of their destruction is at hand, and the time that shall come upon them maketh haste.

Psalms 94:1-23
1O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth: thou God to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.  2Arise thou judge of the world, and reward to the proud after their deserving.  3LORD, how long shall the ungodly, how long shall the ungodly triumph?  4How long shall all wicked doers speak so disdainfully, and make such proud boasting?  5They smite down thy people, O LORD, and trouble thine heritage.  6They murder the widow and the stranger, and put the fatherless to death.  7And yet they say: Tush, the LORD seeth not, the God of Jacob regardeth it not.  8Take heed, ye unwise among the people: O ye fools, when will ye understand?  9He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that made the eye, shall not he see?  10He that nurtureth the Heathen, and teacheth a man knowledge, shall not he punish?  11The LORD knoweth the thoughts of men, that they are but vain.  12Blessed is the man, whom thou learnest, (O LORD) and teachest him in thy law.  13That thou mayest give him patience in time of adversity, until the pit be digged up for the ungodly.  14For the LORD will not fail his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.  15And why? judgment shall be turned again unto righteousness, and all such as be true of heart shall follow it.  16Who riseth up with me against the wicked? who taketh my part against the evil doers?  17If the LORD had not helped me, my soul had almost been put to silence.  18When I said: My foot hath slipped, thy mercy (O LORD) held me up.  19In the multitude of the sorrows that I had in my heart, thy comforts have refreshed my soul.  20Wilt thou have anything to do with the stool of wickedness, which imagineth mischief in the law?  21They gather them together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.  22But the LORD is my refuge, my God is the strength of my confidence.  23He shall recompense them their wickedness, and destroy them in their own malice: yea the LORD our God shall destroy them.  

Nahum 1:2-15
2The LORD is a jealous God, and a taker of vengeance: yea a taker of vengeance is the LORD, and wrothful. The LORD taketh vengeance of his enemies, and reserveth displeasure for his adversaries.  3The LORD suffereth long, he is of great power, and so innocent that he leaveth no man faultless before him. The LORD goeth forth in tempest and stormy weather, the clouds are the dust of his feet.  4When he reproveth the sea, he drieth it up, and turneth all the floods to dry land. Basan is desolate, Charmel and the pleasure of Libnus wasteth away.  5The mountains tremble for him, the hills consume. At the sight of him the earth quaketh: yea the whole world, and all that dwell therein.  6Who may endure before his wrath? Or who is able to abide his grim displeasure? His anger taketh on like fire, and the hard rocks burst in sunder before him.  7Full gracious is the LORD, and a strong hold in time of trouble, he knoweth them that put their trust in him:  8when the flood runneth over, and destroyeth the place, and when the darkness followeth still upon his enemies.  9What do ye imagine then against the LORD on this manner? (Tush, when he hath once made an end, there shall come no more trouble)  10For like as the thorns that stick together, and as the dry straw, so shall the drunkards be consumed together, even when they be full.  11There come out of thee such as Imagine mischief, and give ungracious counsel against the LORD.  12Therefore thus sayeth the LORD: Let them be as well prepared, yea and as many as they can, yet shall they be hewn down, and pass away. And as for thee, I will vex thee, but not utterly destroy thee;  13And now will I break his rod from thy back, and burst thy bonds in sunder.  14But the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that there shall come no more seed of thy name. The carved and casten Images will I root out of the house of thy God. Thy grave shall I prepare for thee, and thou shalt be confounded.  15Behold, upon the mountains come the feet of him, that bringeth good tidings, and preacheth peace. O Judah, keep thy holy days, perform thy promises: for Belial shall come no more in thee, he is utterly rooted out.  

Hebrews 10:30-31
30For we know him that hath said, vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense saith the Lord. And again: the Lord shall judge his people.  31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  



----------------------
Heman wrote:

SA?TAN. The word itself, the Hebrew sa?ta?n, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam. 29:4; 2 Sam. 19:22; 1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Num. 22:22, 32; Ps. 109:6. This original sense is still found in our Lord?s application of the name to St. Peter in Matt. 16:23. It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, viz. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech. 2:1, and (without the article) in 1 Chron. 21:1.
The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".
Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra, clearly denied (devils) their existence. Their point of view eventually became the mainstream Jewish understanding.


I'm just an optimistic fool in this world whom Jesu Christ cometh to save, and perceive that rationalists and empiricists are both wrong and right.. because even though correct at times, unfortunately they trust in the fashion and design of creation over and above the Christ of God the father who is the creator.
Well said the LORD that a devided kingdom can not stand!
Matthew 12:17-37
17to fulfil that which was spoken by Esay the prophet, which sayeth:  18Behold my son, whom I have chosen, my darling, in whom my soul hath had delight. I will put my spirit on him, and he shall shew judgement to the gentiles.  19He shall not strive, he shall not cry, neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets,  20a bruised reed, shall he not break, and flax that beginneth to burn he shall not quench, till he send forth judgement unto victory,  21and in his name shall the gentiles trust.  22Then was brought to him, one possessed with a devil which was both blind and dumb, and he healed him, insomuch that he which was blind and dumb, both spake and saw.  23And all the people were amazed, and said: Is not this the son of David?  24 When the pharisees heard that, they said: He driveth the devils no other wise out, but by the help of belzebub the chief of the devils.  25But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them. Every kingdom divided with in itself shall be desolate. Neither shall any city or household divided against itself, continue.  26So if satan cast out satan, then is he divided against him self. How shall then his kingdom endure?  27Also if I by the help of belzebub cast out devils: by whose help do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges:  28But if I cast out the devils by the spirit of God: then is the kingdom of God come on you?  29Either how can a man enter into a mighty man's house, and violently take away his goods, except he first bind the strong man, and then spoil his house?  30He that is not with me, is against me: And he that gathereth not with me, scattereth abroad.  31Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy against the holy ghost, shall not be forgiven unto men.  32And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the holy ghost, it shall not be forgiven him: no, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.  33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good also, or else make the tree evil, and his fruit evil also. For the tree is known by his fruit.  34O generation of vipers, how can ye say well, when ye yourselves are evil? For of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.  35A good man out of the good treasure of his heart, bringeth forth good things. And an evil man out of his evil treasure, bringeth forth evil things.  36But I say unto you, that of every idle word, that men shall have spoken, they shall give accounts at the day of judgement.  37For by thy words thou shalt be justified: and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.  

That brings to remembrance:
Quote:
Da 2:41 Where as thou sawest the feet and toes, part of earth and part of iron: that is a divided kingdom, which nevertheless shall have some of the iron ground mixt with it, for so much as thou hast seen the iron mixt with the clay.



----------------------
Heman wrote:

The Greek word daemon, daemon, appears in the works of Plato and many other ancient authors, without the evil connotations apparent in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and in the Greek originals of the New Testament.
Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire.
One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.


And what do you think the VATican has been?

Isaiah 14:1-23
1But the LORD will be merciful unto Jacob, and will take up Israel again, and set them in their own land. Strangers shall cleave unto them, and get them to the house of Jacob.  2They shall take the people, and carry them home with them. And the house of Israel shall have them in possession for servants and maidens in the land of the LORD. They shall take those prisoners, whose captives they had been afore: and rule those that had oppressed them.  3When the LORD now shall bring thee to rest, from the travail, fear, and hard bondage that thou wast laden with all:  4Then shalt thou use this mockage upon the king of Babylon, and say: How happeneth that the oppressor leaveth off? Is the gold tribute come to an end?  5Doubtless the LORD hath broken the staff of the ungodly, and the scepter of the lordly.  6Which when he is wroth, smiteth the people with durable strokes, and in his wonders he persecuteth them, and tameth them continually.  7And therefore the whole world is at rest and quietness, and men sing for joy.  8Yea even the fir trees and Cedars of Libanus rejoice at thy fall, saying: Now that thou art laid down, there come no more up to destroy us.  9Hell also trembleth at thy coming, all mighty men and princes of the earth, step forth before thee. All kings of the earth stand up from their seats,  10that they may all (one after another) sing and speak unto thee. Art thou wounded also as we? art thou become like unto us?  11Thy pomp and thy pride is gone down to hell: Moths shall be laid under thee, and worms shall be thy covering.  12How art thou fallen from heaven, (O Lucifer) thou fair morning child? hast thou gotten a fall even to the ground, thou that (notwithstanding) didst subdue the people?  13And yet thou thoughtest in thine heart: I will climb up into heaven, and make my seat above the stars of God, I will sit upon the glorious mount toward the North,  14I will climb up above the clouds, and will be like the highest of all.  15Yet dare I lay, that thou shalt be brought down to the deep of hell.  16They that see thee, shall narrowly look upon thee, and think in themselves, saying: Is this the man, that brought all lands in fear, and made the kingdoms afraid:  17Is this he that made the world in a manner waste, and laid the cities to the ground, which let not his prisoners go home?  18How happeneth it, that the kings of all people lie, every one at home in his own palace, with worship,  19and thou art cast out of thy grave like a wild branch: like as dead men's raiment that are shot thorow with the sword: as they that go down to the stones of the deep: as a dead corpse that is trodden under feet:  20and art not buried with them? Even because that thou hast wasted thy land, and destroyed thy people. For the generation of the wicked shall be without honour, forever.  21There shall a way be sought to destroy their children, for their fathers' wickedness: They shall not rise up again to possess the land, and fill the world full of castles and towns.  22I will stand up against them, (sayeth the LORD of Hosts) and root out the name and generation of Babylon (sayeth the LORD)  23and will give it to the Otters, and will make water puddles of it. and I will sweep them out with the besom of destruction, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.  


The original Portuguese Bible translated from the Hebrew by John Almeida (a reformer priest who escaped that worldly church which since she couldn't burn him alive like Tyndale; instead burned him in statue at Goa, India) .. notwithstanding the original Portuguese translation (mostly stil survived til today) says:
Isaiah 14:11 J? foy derribada no inferno tua soberba com o som de teus ala?des: os bichinhos debaixo de ti se espargir?o, e os bichos te cubrir?o.
12 Como cahiste desdo ceo, ? estrella da manh?, filha da alva do dia? Como cortado foste por terra, tu que debilitavas as gentes.

Translated:
Isa 14:11 Already thy pomp be thrown down into hell with the sound of your viols: the moth is spread under thee, and the worms shall cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, daughter of the dawn? How hast thou been cut even to the ground, thou that hast debilitated the people.

It is incredible to note that particular meaning of, "O star of the morning, daughter of the dawn".. since "daughter" best translates the spiritual name for a given nation or derived group of people.

Also the Portuguese dictionary defines:
Quote:
alva
do Lat. alba
s. f.,
primeiro alvor da manh?; {morning's beginning bright light}
alvorada; {birds corner at dawn, or military morning sound at the cartels}
dil?culo; {aurora}
vestimenta talar de pano branco com que o sacerdote cat?lico celebra alguns actos do culto; {white robe that the catholic priest uses to celebrate some cult acts}
t?nica dos condenados ? forca; {tunic of the condemned by force}
escler?tica; {sclerotic}
casta de uva; {a kind of grape}

adj. f.,
branca. {white}
estrela de -: o planeta V?nus. {star of -: the planet Venus}


Interesting to note how "alva" from the Latin alba was taken by the Romans to mean a white precious stone; pearl; or the star of planet Venus. Perhaps a byzarre detail for today's technological age.


Furthermore, here's the derived Hebrew words in the translation "..O star of the morning, daughter of the dawn?":
Quote:
שחר (where alba comes from)
Strong: H7837
Transliterated: shachar
from 7836; dawn (literal, figurative or adverbial):--day(-spring), early, light, morning, whence riseth.
Strong: H7836
Transliterated: shachar
a primitive root; properly, to dawn, i.e. (figuratively) be (up) early at any task (with the implication of earnestness); by extension, to search for (with painstaking):--(do something) betimes, enquire early, rise (seek) betimes, seek diligently) early, in the morning).

הילל
Strong: H1966
Transliterated: heylel
from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.
Strong: H1984
Transliterated: halal
a primitive root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify:--(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(- ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.

בן
Strong: H1121
Transliterated: ben
from 1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like 1, 251, etc.)):--+ afflicted, age, (Ahoh-) (Ammon-) (Hachmon-) (Lev-)ite, (anoint-)ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, (Assyr-) (Babylon-) (Egypt-) (Grec-)ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant(-est), whelp, worthy, young (one), youth.

ילל
Strong: H3213
Transliterated: yalal
a primitive root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one):--(make to) howl, be howling.


Also worthy of mention.. the word definition of Lucifer from the Latin mostly agrees with the Hebrew.
Latin dictionary wrote:
Lucifer
light bringing; morning star, day star, planet Venus; bringer of light; Lucifer, Satan;


Another place really worthy to note that is:
Isaiah 51:9-16
9Wake up, wake up, and be strong: O thou arm of the LORD: wake up, like as in times past, ever and since the world began.  10Art not thou he, that hast wounded that proud lucifer, and hewn the dragon in pieces? Art not thou even he, which hast dried up the deep of the sea, which hast made plain the sea ground, that the delivered might go thorow?  11That the redeemed of the LORD, which turned again, might come with joy unto Sion, there to endure for ever? That mirth and gladness might be with them: that sorrow and woe might flee from them?  12Yea I, I am even he, that in all things giveth you consolation. What art thou then, that fearest a mortal man, the child of man, which goeth away as doeth the flour?  13And forgetest the LORD that made thee, that spread out the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth. But thou art ever afraid for the sight of thine oppressor, which is ready to do harm: Where is the wrath of the oppressor?  14It cometh on fast, it maketh haste to appear: It shall not perish, that it should not be able to destroy, neither shall it fail for fault of nourishing.  15I am the LORD thy God, that make the sea to be still, and to rage: whose name is the LORD of Hosts.  16I shall put my word also in thy mouth, and defend thee with the turning of my hand: that thou mayest plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Sion: Thou art my people.  



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Heman wrote:

The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic?you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.The notion of an angel having free will is alien to Judaism.
Free will requires the tension created by being a soul dwelling in a body. People can have free will, angels can't. There is a debate over whether they lack the potential for free will, or whether they simply percieve reality to clearly to have any choices to make. But in any case, without the fence-straddling of the human condition, there is no free will. HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.


I don't know.. perhaps Eliphaz the Temanite was quick to speak to Job:
Job 4:18
Behold there is no trust to his servants, and in his angels hath he found frowardness.


Notwithstanding..

Is he the God of the jews only? Is he not also the God of the gentiles? He is no doubt, God also of the gentiles.
<Yes, even of the Gentiles also.> - Romans 3:29

Who are to say if God had some part in some of the so called Pagan stuff.. First Corinthians 2:13 admonishes us to judge spiritual matters spiritually (whatever they may be) by making Spiritual comparisons of spiritual things.
Bears to attention:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5And though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth (as there be gods many and lords many)  6but unto us is there one God, which is the father, of whom are all things, and we in him: and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.  

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood: but against rule, against power, and against worldly rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly things.



As far as whatever creation (let it be angels, even beasts or persons) that doubt him even when seeing such great evidence before their eyes, yet rather trust something else and even hate him without a cause; .. that is extremely dangerous. For thus saith the Lord:
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the holy ghost, it shall not be forgiven him: no, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:28-30
28Verily I say unto you all sins shall be forgiven unto men's children: and blasphemy, wherewith they blaspheme:  29but he that blasphemeth the holy ghost, shall never have forgiveness: but is in danger of eternal damnation.  30For they said, he had an unclean spirit.  


Damnation does not represent any so called "free will" but a damned choice. I perceive true liberty does not freely take itself for granted because it came at a great price in Christ.

It's interesting to note that William Tyndale was condemned as a heretic, degraded from the priesthood, and delivered to the secular authorities for punishment under the laws of the Inquisition because many were quick to judge spiritual things carnally and accuse him of:
Quote:
First :.... He maintains that faith alone justifies.
Second :... He maintains that to believe in the forgiveness of sins and to embrace the mercy offered in the Gospel, is enough for salvation.
Third :.... He avers that human traditions cannot bind the conscience, except where their neglect might occasion scandal.
Fourth :... He denies the freedom of the will.
Fifth :.... He denies that there is any purgatory.
Sixth :.... He affirms that neither the virgin nor the saints pray for us in their own person.
Seventh :. He asserts that neither the virgin nor the saints should be invoked by us.



Yea, and on a commentary to First John, William Tyndale well answereth it:
Quote:
Ye are of God little children, and have overcome them. For greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world. (1Jo 4:4)

He that dwelleth in you and worketh in you through faith, is greater then he which dwelleth and worketh in them through unbelief. And in his strength ye abide by your profession, and confess your Lord Jesus, how he came in the flesh and hath purged the sin of all that believe in his flesh. And through that faith ye overcome them - even in the very torments of death. So that neither their deceptions, neither their pleasures, neither their threatenings, or their torments, or the very death wherewith they slay your bodies, can prevail against you.

They be of the world, and therefore they speak of the world, and the world attendeth {i.e. listens and heeds} unto them. We bee of God: and hee that knoweth God heareth us. And he that is not of God heareth us not. And hereby we know the spirit of truth and the spirite of errour.

There are only two kinds of men in the world:
Those who belong to God and those who belong to the devil


There be and ever shall be two generations in the world: one of the devil, which naturally hearken unto the false Apostles of the devil because they speak so agreeably unto their natural complexion. And another of God, which harken unto the true Apostles of God, consenting to their doctrine. And this is a sure rule by which to judge all spirits, that we judge them to have the spirit of truth, which harken unto the true doctrine of Christ?s Apostles; and also to judge them to have the spirit of error which hearken unto worldly and devilish doctrine, abhorring the preaching of the Apostles. And see whether the pope?s doctrine be worldly or not, if pride and covetousness be worldly, ye and LECHERY, too. For what else do his doctrines consist of but benefices, promotions, dignities, bishoprics, cardinalships, vicarages, parsonages, prebends, change of bishoprics, resigning of benefices, of unions, pluralities, and that which cometh once into their hands may not leave their hands; yea, and of WHORES and CONCUBINES, and of capturing the consciences of the covetous. All that hearken to that doctrine abhor the doctrine of the Apostles, persecuting it and them that preach it??

??.Herein appeared the love of God unto us warde, because God sent his only sonne into the world, that we should live through hym. Herein is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent hys sonne, a satisfaction for our synnes.

Man?s free will decision for Christ a damnable lie

If a man had once felt within his conscience the fierce wrath of God toward sinners, and the terrible and most cruel damnation that the law threatens: and then beheld with the eyes of a strong faith, the merciful favor and gracious taking away of the damnation of the law and the restoring again of life, freely offered us in Christ?s blood, he should perceive love, and so much the more, that it was showed us when we were sinners and enemies of God, Romans 5, and that with all deservings, without our endeavoring, enforcing and preparing ourselves, without all good motions, qualities and properties of our freewill. But [he loved us] when our hearts were as dead unto all good working, as the members of him whose soul is departed. This truth I will prove to stop the blasphemous mouths of our adversaries [who preach man?s freewill love of God]. I will from innumerable texts rehearse but one found in the beginning of the second chapter to the Ephesians, where Paul saith thus,

Ye were dead in trespass and sin in which ye walked according to the course of the world and after the governor who ruleth in the air, the spirit that worketh in the children of unbelief, among which we also had our conversation in time past, in the lusts of our flesh and of the mind (so that the flesh and the mind were in agreement to sin, the mind consenting as well as the flesh) and were by nature the children of wrath as well as others. But God being rich in mercy, through the great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sin, hath quickened us with Christ: for by grace are ye saved: and with him hath raised us by and with him made us sit in heavenly things through Jesus Christ, for to show in time to come the exceeding riches of his grace, in kindness to usward in Jesus Christ. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: for it is the gift of God, and commeth not of works, lest any man should boast himself. But we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, unto which God ordained us before that we should walk in them.

The text is plain. We were stone dead and without life or power to do or consent to good. Our whole nature was captive under the devil and led of his will. And we were as wicked as the devil now is (except he now sinneth against the holy ghost) and we consented unto sin with soul and body, and hated the law of God. But God of his grace only quickened us in Christ, and raised us out of that death and made us sit with Christ in heavenly things. That is, he set our hearts at rest and made us sit secure in the life of Christ?s doctrine, immoveable from the love of Christ. And finally, our second birth is God?s workmanship and creation in Christ, so that as he which is yet unmade hath no life nor power to work, neither did we until we were made again in Christ. The preaching of mercy in Christ quickened our hearts through faith, wrought by the spirit of Christ which God placed in our hearts before we were wise??.



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Heman wrote:

Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7)
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
.


God does NOT create the "EVIL" people may misunderstand in such broad word. That's why the significance of the above post detailing it's history must be direly acknowledged.


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Heman wrote:

Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).


Who are we to question God's porpuses and timing?

For it is written:
Isaiah 55:8-11
8For thus sayeth the LORD: my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,  9but as far as the heavens are higher than the earth, so far do my ways exceed yours, and my thoughts yours.  10And like as the rain and snow cometh down from heaven, and returneth not thither again, but watereth the earth, maketh it fruitful and green, that it may give corn and bread unto the sower:  11So the word also that cometh out of my mouth shall not turn again void unto me, but shall accomplish my will and prosper in the thing, whereto I sent it.  

Mark 13:31-32
31Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.  32But of the day and the hour, knoweth no man: no not the angels which are in heaven: neither the son himself, save the father only.  


I perceive that though God knew about all possibilities since the beginning, yea being love, he took gr8 risk, but (in HIS sovereign providence) has always been accountable for his actions as the signs of the times already well tells it for those that have hears to ear. And according to his wholesome and perfect timing, he will do what he will.. and the devout ought to fully trust him because he just was, is, and forever will be holy.


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Heman wrote:

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent who spoke as moved just as Balaam in Nu 22:27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam?s anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
Nu 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?


What kind of comparison is that with the serpent to Balaam's ass?

Ironic that the ass saved Balaam's ass.
Numbers 22:29-33
29And Balam said unto the Ass: because thou hast mocked me? I would that I had a sword in mine hand, that I might now kill thee.  30And the ass said unto Balam: am not I thine Ass which thou hast ridden upon since thou wast born unto this day? Was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, nay.  31And the LORD opened the eyes of Balam that he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his sword drawn in his hand. And he bowed himself and fell flat on his face.  32And the angel of the LORD said unto him: Wherefore smitest thou thine ass this three times? behold, I came out to resist thee, for the way is contrary unto me,  33and the ass saw me and avoided me three times: or else (had she not turned from me) I had surely slain thee and saved her alive.  

And even how that an ass can tread the serpent down.

Brings to attention:
Jude 1:11-21
11Woe be unto them, for they have followed the way of Cain, and are spilt in the error of Balaam for lucre's sake, and are cast away in the treason of Core.  12These are spots which of your kindness feast together, without fear, feeding themselves. Clouds they are without water, carried about of winds: Trees rotten in autumn, unfruitfull, twice dead, and plucked up by the roots.  13They are raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame. They are wandering stars, to whom is reserved the mist of darkness for ever.  14Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied before of such saying: Behold, the Lord shall come with thousands of saints,  15to give judgement against all men, and to rebuke all that are ungodly among them, of all their ungodly deeds, which they have ungodly committed, and of all their cruel speakings, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.  16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts, whose mouth's speak proud things. They have men in great reverence because of advantage.  17But ye beloved remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  18how that they told you that there should be beguilers in the last time, which should walk after their own ungodly lusts.  19These are makers of sects, natural, having no spirit.  20But ye dearly beloved, edify yourselves in your most wholy faith, praying in the wholy ghost,  21and keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto eternal life.  



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Heman wrote:

In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Ha-Satan," the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on the subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in it's character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to ha-satan. The subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever


Sorry, (in behalf of all the fools in this world) i had to lookup some words in the dictionary:
"emphatic" means Striking the sense; attracting special attention; impressive; forcible.
"subordinate" means Placed in a lower order, class, or rank; holding a lower or inferior position.
"delegated" means Sent to act for or represent another; deputed; as, a delegate judge.

Notwithstanding, from what i gather of that statement.. putting doubt on anything does not prove anything.

No wonder apostle Paul said:
1 Corinthians 1:17-21
17For Christ sent me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should have been made of none effect.  18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God.  19For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will cast away the understanding of the prudent.  20Where is the wise man? where is the scribe? where is the searcher of this world? Hath not God made the wisdom of this world foolishness?  21For when the world thorow wisdom knew not God, in the wisdom of God: it pleased God thorow foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.  

2 Corinthians 11:3-7
3But I fear lest as the serpent beguiled Eve, thorow his subtlety, even so your wits should be corrupt from the singleness that is in Christ.  4For if he that cometh to you preach another Jesus than him whom we preached: or if ye receive another spirit than that which ye have received: either another gospel than that ye have received, ye might right well have been content.  5I suppose that I was not behind the chief apostles.   6Though I be rude in speaking, yet I am not so in knowledge. How be it among you we are known to the utmost what we are in all things.  7Did I therein sin, because I submitted myself, that ye might be exalted? and because I preached the gospel to you free?   



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Heman wrote:

Of the nature and original state of "Ha-Satan",nothing is revealed in Scripture.
As to the time, cause, and manner of his fall Scripture again tells us nothing; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil one. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God?love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, that the opposites of these qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the Ha-satan.


What about:
Ezekiel 28:11-19
11Moreover, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying:  12Thou son of man, make a lamentable complaint over the king of Tyre, and tell him: Thus sayeth the Lord GOD: Thou art a seal of a likeness, full of wisdom and excellent beauty.  13Thou hast been in the pleasure garden of God: thou art decked with all manner of precious stones: with Ruby, Topas, Crystal, Jacinth, Onyx, Jaspis, Sapphire, Smaragde, Carbuncle, and gold. Thy beauty and the holes that be in thee were set forth in the day of thy creation.  14Thou art a fair Cherub, stretched wide out for to cover. I have set thee upon the holy mount of God, there hast thou been, and walked among the fair glistering stones.  15From the time of thy creation thou hast been right excellent, till wickedness was found in thee.  16Because of thy great merchandise, thy heart is full of wickedness, and thou hast offended. Therefore will I cast thee from the mount of God (O thou covering Cherub) and destroy thee among the glistering stones.  17Thy heart was proud in thy fair beauty, and thorow thy beauty thou hast destroyed thy wisdom. I will cast thee down to the ground, and that in the sight of kings.  18Thou hast defiled thy Sanctuary, with the great wickedness of thy unrighteous occupying. I will bring a fire from the middest of thee, to consume thee: and will make thee to ashes, in the sight of all them that look upon thee.  19All they that have been acquainted with thee among the Heathen, shall be abashed at thee: seeing thou art so clean brought to naught, and comest no more up.  


It's interesting how the LORD starts saying "Thou art a seal of a likeness, full of wisdom and excellent beauty." that i perceive is hinting at something more than only the King of Tyre.


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heman wrote:

The indirect action of ha-satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which it is designated in Scripture. It is called emphatically in the Hebrew sa?ta?n and is simply an "adversary," . The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and "set them at variance"; but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of "setting at variance by slander."
The subject of a test is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations (tests) of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in James 1:13-16, that "temptation," is properly so called, "sin".
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


James 1:13-16 is speaking of man's state, and that does not deny <negate> the reality where Satan is mentioned:

Quote:
1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and persuaded David to number Israel.

Psalms 109:1-20
1To the chanter, a Psalm of David. Hold not thy tongue, O God of my praise.  2For the mouth of the ungodly, yea and the mouth of the deceitful is opened upon me, and speak against me with false tongues.  3They compass me about with words of hatred, and fight against me without a cause.  4For the love that I had unto thee, they take now my contrary part, but I give myself unto prayer.  5Thus they reward me evil for good, and hatred for my good will.  6Set an ungodly man to be ruler over him, and let Satan stand at his right hand.  7When sentence is given upon him, let him be condemned, and let his prayer be turned into sin.  8Let his days be few, and his bishopric let another take.  9Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.  10Let his children be vagabonds, and beg their bread: let them seek it, as they that be destroyed.  11Let the extortioner consume all that he hath, and let strangers spoil his labour.  12Let there be no man to pity, nor to have compassion on his fatherless children.  13Let his end be destruction, and in the next generation let his name be clean put out.  14Let the wickedness of his fathers be had in remembrance in the sight of LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be done away.  15Let them be alway before the LORD, but as for the memorial of them selves, let it perish from out of the earth.  16And that because his mind was not to do good, but persecuted the poor helpless, and him that was vexed at the heart, to slay him.  17His delight was in cursing, and therefore shall it happen unto him: he loved not blessing, and that shall be far from him.  18He clothed himself with cursing like as with a raiment: yea it went into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.  19Let it be unto him as the cloak that he hath on him, and as the girdle that he is girded withal.  20Let it thus happen from the LORD unto mine enemies, and to those that speak evil against my soul.  

Zechariah 3:1-2
1And he shewed me Jesua the high priest, standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan stood at his right hand to resist him.  2And the LORD said unto Satan: The LORD reprove thee (thou Satan) yea the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem, reprove thee. Is not this a brand taken out of the fire?  


Matthew 4:10
Then said Jesus unto him, avoid Satan. For it is written, thou shalt worship thy Lord God, and him only, shalt thou serve.

Matthew 12:25-26
25But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them. Every kingdom divided with in itself shall be desolate. Neither shall any city or household divided against itself, continue.  26So if satan cast out satan, then is he divided against him self. How shall then his kingdom endure?  

Matthew 16:23
Then turned he about, and said unto Peter: go after me Satan, thou offendest me, because thou perceivest not godly things: but worldly things.

Mark 1:13
and he was there in the wilderness forty days, and was tempted of Satan, and was with wild beasts. And the angels ministered unto him.

Mark 3:23-30
23And he called them unto him, and in similitudes said unto them. How can Satan drive out Satan?  24For if a realm be divided against itself, that realm cannot endure.  25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot continue:  26So if Satan make insurrection against himself, and be divided, he cannot continue, but hath an end.  27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and take away his goods, except he first bind that strong man and then spoil his house.  28Verily I say unto you all sins shall be forgiven unto men's children: and blasphemy, wherewith they blaspheme:  29but he that blasphemeth the holy ghost, shall never have forgiveness: but is in danger of eternal damnation.  30For they said, he had an unclean spirit.  

Mark 4:15
These be they which are by the ways side, where the word is sown, to whom as soon as they have heard it, cometh the devil and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Mark 8:33
He turned about, and looked on his disciples, and rebuked Peter saying: Go after me Satan. For thou savourest not the things of God but the things of men.

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered and said unto him: hence from me Satan. For it is written. Thou shalt honour thy Lord God, and him only serve.

Luke 11:18-20
18So if Satan be at variance within himself: how shall his kingdom endure? Be cause ye say that I cast out devils by the power of Belzebub?  19If I by the power of Belzebub cast out devils: by whose power, do your children cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges.  20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt, the kingdom of God is come upon you.  

Luke 21:1-5
1As he beheld, he saw the rich men, how they cast in their offerings into the treasury.  2 He saw also a certain poor widow, which cast in thither two mites.  3And he said: of a truth I say unto you, this poor widow hath put in more than they all.  4For they all have of their superfluity added unto the offering of God: But she, of her penury, hath cast in all the substance that she had.  5As some spake of the temple, how it was garnished with goodly stones, and jewels, he said:  

Luke 22:31-32
31And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired you, to sift you, as it were wheat:  32But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not. And when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.  

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him: that thou dost do quickly.

Acts 5:3
Then said Peter: Ananias how is it that Satan hath filled thine heart, that thou shouldest lie unto the holy ghost, and keep away part of the price of thy livelihood:

Acts 26:14-18
14When we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the prick.  15And I said: Who art thou Lord? And he said: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:  16But rise and stand up on thy feet. For I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister, and a witness both of those things which thou hast seen, and of those things in thee which I will appear unto thee,  17delivering thee from the people, and from the gentiles, unto thee which now I send thee,  18to open their eyes that they might turn from darkness unto light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in me.  

Romans 16:20
The God of peace tread Satan under your feet in short time. The grace of our Lord Jesu Christ be with you.

1 Corinthians 5:3-5
3For I verily as absent in body, even so present in spirit, have determined already (as though I were present) of him that hath done this deed,  4in the name of our Lord Jesu Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ,  5to deliver him unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.  

1 Corinthians 7:5
Withdraw not your selves one from another except it be with consent for a time, for to give yourselves to fasting and prayer, and afterward come again to the same thing, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency.

2 Corinthians 2:10-14
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also. And verily if I forgive any thing, to whom I forgave it for your sakes forgave I it, in the room of Christ,  11lest Satan should prevent us. For his thoughts are not unknown unto us.  12When I was come to Troada for Christ's gospel's sake (and a great door was opened unto me of the Lord)  13I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but took my leave of them and went away into Macedonia.  14Thanks be unto God which always giveth us the victory in Christ, and openeth the savor of his knowledge by us in every place.  

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted out of measure thorow the abundance of revelations, there was given unto me of God unquietness of the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me: because I should not be exalted out of measure.

1 Thessalonians 2:17-20
17Forasmuch brethren as we are kept from you for a season, as concerning the bodily presence but not in the heart, we enforced the more to see you personally with great desire,  18and therefore we would have come unto you, I Paul once and again: but Satan withstood us.  19For what is our hope or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not ye it in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?  20Yea ye are our glory and joy.  

2 Thessalonians 2:7-10
7For already the mystery of iniquity worketh. Only he that holdeth, let him now hold, until it be taken out of the way,  8and then shall that wicked be uttered, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the appearance of his coming,  9even him whose coming is by the working of Satan, with all lying power, signs, and wonders:  10and in all deceivableness of unrighteousness, among them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth, that they might have been saved.  

1 Timothy 1:20
Of whose number is Himeneus, and Alexander, which I have delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Timothy 5:14-15
14I will therefore that the younger women marry and bear children, and guide the house, and give none occasion to the adversary to speak evil.  15For many of them are all ready turned back, and are gone after Satan.  

Revelation 2:24-29
24Unto you I say, and unto other of them of Thiatira as many as have not this learning, and which have not known the deepness of Satan (as they say) I will put upon you none other burden,  25but that which you have already. Hold fast till I come,  26and whosoever overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over nations,  27and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and as the vessels of a potter, shall he break them to shivers. Even as I received of my father.  28And I will give him the morning star.  29Let him that hath ears hear what the spirit says to the congregations.  

Revelation 20:1-10
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand.  2And he took the dragon that old serpent, which is the devil and satanas, and he bound him a thousand years:  3and cast him into the bottomless pit, and he bound him, and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the people no more, till the thousand years were fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed for a little season.  4And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them were beheaded for the witness of Jesu, and for the word of God: which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his mark upon their foreheads, or on their hands: and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand year:  5but the other of the dead men lived not again, until the thousand year were finished. This is that first resurrection.  6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. For on such shall the second death have no power, for they shall be the priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand year.  7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  8and shall go out to deceive the people which are in the four quarters of the earth Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle whose number is as the sand of the sea:  9and they went up on the plain of the earth, and compassed the tents of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God, out of heaven, and devoured them:  10and the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were and shall be tormented day and night for ever more.  



----------------------
Heman wrote:

The 'popular' image of the Devil has no Biblical basis.
The belief in huge creatures/monsters inhabiting the deep was widespread throughout the ancient world.
The sea serpent is a mythological and legendary marine animal that is traditionally thought to resemble an enormous snake. In the Old Testament there are several allusions to a primordial combat between God and a monstrous adversary variously named Leviathan or Rahab. At one place in the Old Testament, the Leviathan appears as a multi-headed sea serpent that is killed by God and given as food to the Hebrews in the wilderness.
Certain Jewish legends consider leviathan as an androgynous dragon that seduced Eve in its male form, and Adam in its female form.
In demonology a leviathan is any aquatic demon. They are great liars. Leviathans can also possess persons, being very difficult to exorcise; they try to possess every person, but especially women.
Some biblical scholars considered Leviathan to represent the pre-existent forces of chaos. In Psalm 74:13-14 it says "it was You who drove back the sea with Your might, who smashed the heads of the monsters in the waters; it was You who crushed the heads of Leviathan, who left him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. (JPS edition)" God drove back the waters of the pre-existent Earth (Genesis 1:2 "the earth being unformed and void with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water-" [JPS edition]) and destroyed the chaotic marine monster Leviathan in order to shape the unformed and void Earth in his liking.
DEMONIACS. This word is frequently used in the New Testament, and applied to persons suffering under the possession of a demon or evil spirit, such possession generally showing itself visibly in bodily disease or mental derangement.
It has been maintained by many persons that our Lord and the evangelists, in referring to demonical possession, spoke only in accommodation to the general belief of the Jews.
It is concluded that, since the symptoms of the affliction were frequently those of bodily disease (as dumbness, Matt. 9:32; blindness, Matt. 12:22; epilepsy, Mark 9:17-27), or those seen in cases of ordinary insanity (as in Matt. 8:28; Mark 5:1-5), the demoniacs were merely persons suffering under unusual diseases of body and mind. But demoniacs are frequently distinguished from those afflicted with bodily sickness, see Mark 1:32; 16:17, 18; Luke 6:17, 18; the same outward signs are sometimes referred to possession, sometimes merely to disease, comp. Matt. 4:24 with 17:15; Matt. 12:22 with Mark 7:32, etc.; the demons are represented as speaking in their own persons just like Ballam's donkey. Matt. 8:29; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 4:41, etc. All these things speak of a personal power of evil. Twice our Lord distinctly connects demoniacal possession with the adversary. Luke 10:18.
Lastly, the single fact recorded of the entrance of the demons at Gadara, Mark 5:10-14, into the herd of swine, and the effect which that entrance caused, is sufficient to overthrow the notion that our Lord and the evangelists do not assert or imply any objective reality of possession. We are led, therefore, to the ordinary and literal interpretation of these passages, that the subjects of the adversary, who, in the days of the Lord himself and his apostles especially, were permitted by God to exercise a direct influence over certain men.


That may be somewhat true to a degree.. but i perceive the complete reality is even according to the laws of the universe that God (in his sovereign providence) does things in a lawful order to benefit all creation.
And though there may be some exceptions, (and he has the right and power to make them) .. such as:
Joshua 10:12-14
12Then spake Josua unto the LORD, the day when the LORD delivered the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of all Israel: Son stand thou still upon Gabaon, and thou Moon, in the valley of Aialon.  13And the sun abode, and the moon stood still, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of the righteous, how that the son abode in the midst of heaven and hasted not to go down by the space of a whole day.  14And there was no day like that, before it, or after it, that the LORD obeyed the voice of a man: and all because the LORD fought for Israel.  

.. Notwithstanding, that does not give us a license to judge things prematurely in thinking we would know any better.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see in a glass even in a dark speaking: but then shall we see face to face. Now I know unperfectly: but then shall I know even as I am known.

1 John 3:2-3
2Dearly beloved, now are we the sons of God, and yet it hath not appear what we shall be. But we know that when it shall appear, we shall be like him. For we shall see him as he is.  3And every man that hath this hope in him, purgeth himself, even as he is pure.  

2 Corinthians 3:6
which hath made us able to minister the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit: For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Yea it was the blood of Christ shed on earth that cleanseth us, and driveth chaos to it's bottomless pit. And even when God shall fully take his covering of protection away, (since most don't really want it anyway till it's too late), and though the devout still ought to ask for mercy, Christ nonetheless is the ultimate ensample:
Luke 22:41-44
41And he gat himself from them, about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,  42saying: Father if thou wilt, withdraw this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will; But thine be fulfilled.  43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, comforting him.  44And he was in agony, and prayed somewhat longer. And his sweat was like drops of blood, trickling down to the ground.  

Thus no matter what is allowed in God's sovereign providence, it is cause it is for the best and a great lesson to be learned.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 Now is Christ risen from death, and is become the first fruits of them that slept.  21For by a man came death, and by a man came resurrection of death.   22For as by Adam all die: even so by Christ, shall all be made alive,  23and every man in his own order: The first is Christ, then they that are Christ's at his coming.  24Then cometh the end, when he hath delivered up the kingdom to God the father, when he hath put down all rule, authority, and power.  25For he must rule till he have put all his enemies under his feet.  26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest, that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  28When all things are subdued unto him: then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all things.  


Otherwise it would make no sense:

John 8:42-51
42Jesus said unto them: if God were your father, then would ye have loved me. For I proceeded forth and come from God. Neither came I of myself, but he sent me.  43Why do ye not know my speech? Because ye cannot abide the hearing of my words.  44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father, ye will follow: He was a murderer from the beginning; And abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, then speaketh he of his own. For he is a liar, and the father thereof.  45And because I tell you the truth, therefore believe ye not me.   46Which of you can rebuke me of sin? If I say the truth, why do not ye believe me?  47He that is of God, heareth God's words. Ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.  48Then answered the jews and said unto him: Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan and hast the devil?  49Jesus answered: I have not the devil: but I honour my father, and ye have dishonored me.  50I seek not mine own praise: There is one that seeketh it and judgeth.  51Verily, verily I say unto you, if a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death.  

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, that is to wit of the congregation, he is the beginning and first begotten of the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:18
and am alive, and was dead. And behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys of hell and of death.


Hosea 13:14
had not I defended him from the grave, and delivered him from death. O death, I will be thy death: O hell, I will be thy sting.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57
55Death where is thy sting? Hell where is thy victory?  56The sting of death is sin. The strength of sin is the law:  57But thanks be unto God, which hath given us victory thorow our Lord Jesus Christ.  

Isaiah 25:8
As for death he shall utterly consume it. The Lord GOD shall wipe away the tears from all faces, and take away the confusion of his people thorow the whole world. For the LORD himself hath said it.

_________________
Zechariah 4:6
He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.


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heman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Reply with quote

Notwithstanding: God controls the world;
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
19 ? And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees? excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
24 ? The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

And using the very same language we read:
Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

And the PURPOSE for the destruction of Tyre:
Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
What are we to understand by "the devil" so often mentioned in the Bible, and, spoken of in the "third personal pronoun, singular, masculine gender"? This is the question now demanding an answer, and the demand will be met by facts which will show the impossibility of the existence of the devil of popular superstition.
The theology of Christendom places the devil in juxtaposition with God.
It is the polytheism of paganism in its smallest form: and the philosophy of the ancients embodied in names and forms supplied by the Bible.
The doctrine of the devil has as intimate a bearing upon the truth of Christ as the doctrine of God.
First, the orthodox point of view:
He is the great nightmare, the great object of terror, the great fowler, with net-snare, exerting his utmost cunning and device--which are something superhuman--to entrap souls. Cruden describes him as "a most wicked angel, the implacable enemy and tempter of the human race... deadly in. his malice, surprisingly subtle possessing strength superior to ours, having a mighty number of principalities and powers under his command . . . He roves, full of rage, like a roaring lion, seeking to tempt, to betray, to destroy us, and to involve us in guilt and wickedness . . . In a word, he is an enemy to God and man, and uses his utmost endeavours to rob God of His glory, and men of their souls."
Common belief assigns something like omniscience to the evil being thus described; he is regarded as universally at work. He is also believed to be, in some sense, omnipotent, achieving his behests by a power superior to nature, and certainly more successfully than God in the mutual strife for human souls.
From the second point of view:
No one acquainted with the teaching of the New Testament will dispute, that it is necessary to understand and believe the truth concerning Christ. James, speaking of himself, and those who were Christ's, says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word o! truth" (James 1:18).
Now, this truth is styled "the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col. 1:5), "by which also ye are saved" (I Cor. 15: 2).
Therefore, the gospel consists of "the kingdom of God and those things that concern our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 28:31), elsewhere styled, "the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 8:12). From this it follows, that for a man to believe the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16), he must believe the truth concerning Jesus Christ. In view of this, let us ponder the following testimonies :--
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL" (I John 3:8).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL" (Heb.2:14).
Is it possible to believe the truth concerning Christ, and be ignorant of the nature of the devil that he was expressly manifested to destroy with his works? It is unnecessary to answer the question. It is necessary to put it for the purpose of shewing that the doctrine of the devil (in whatever form the truth of the matter may be found to exist) is so far from being an unimportant matter, that it is one of the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, ignorance of which argues a fatal want of knowledge in relation to the first of divine principles. The doctrine of the devil is not an "advanced" subject, but bears upon the most elementary aspects of divine truth.

Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those "men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).

In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle; death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (I Tim. 6:16).
Therefore, the angels which kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave), and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death)--(Jude 6; II Peter 2:2, 4), therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19).

An immortal rebel is an impossibility. With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). "In His hand is the life of every living thing" (Job12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death.
Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in the case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal. God is no respecter of persons, whether of men or angels.

Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person; "for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and must, therefore, have been mortal from the beginning.
The theory of an immortal, supernatural devil, who was once an angel, has an air of plausibility and consistency about it, when not scanned too closely; but the idea of a mortal devil--who never was anything but a sinner himself---entrusted 'with a general jurisdiction over other sinners (for it is said he has the power of death and disease), for the purpose, not of dispensing the divine law, but of antagonising the Deity in His dealings with the human race--doing all he can to afflict and damn those whom Deity is represented as striving to save, is something exceedingly difficult to conceive.

If this is the Bible devil, why was it necessary that Jesus should die to compass his destruction?
He took part of flesh and blood, that "THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14).
Why through death?
If the devil is a being separate from mankind, what had the immolation of flesh and blood on Calvary to do with the process of his destruction? If he were the strong, personal, active power of evil contended for, it wanted strength, and not weakness, to put him down. It wanted "the nature of angels," and not "the seed of Abraham," to enter into a successful encounter with "the personal power of darkness." But Jesus, to destroy him, was manifested in the flesh, and submitted to death. Victory crowned his efforts, and the devil was destroyed.

The doctrine of God's existence; of His creative power; of His relation to His universe, is not only implied in the appellations He appropriates to Himself, but expressly propounded. Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

The narrative of creation exhibits the natural serpent, "more subtle than any BEAST OF THE FIELD which the Lord God had made" (Gen. 3:1), as the tempter. The creature was endowed with the gift of speech (no doubt, specially with a view to the part it had to perform in putting our first parents to the test).
To suggest that the serpent was Satan in reptile form is again to go beyond the record, and enter a region where one guess or one assertion is as good as another.

The idea is forbidden by the sentence which condemns the serpent to eat dust all the days of its life. Paul evidently recognised nothing beyond the serpent in the transaction. "I fear," says he, "lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty," etc. (II Cor. 11:3).
Some people make a great difficulty about the serpent speaking; but surely there is as much difficulty about a serpent speaking under satanic inspiration as in one speaking by faculty divinely conferred for a purpose. If a "dumb ass, speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness" of a Balaam----(II Pet. 2:16)--why not a serpent be enabled to utter its thoughts when it was necessary to try the faithfulness of Adam and Eve? How otherwise could they be put to trial?
It is commonly believed that the devil was once a powerful arch-angel, and that he was driven out of heaven on account of his pride; after which, he applied his angelic energies to oppose God in all His schemes and movements, and do as much evil as he could in the universe, being assisted in this by a host of angelic sympathisers, who were driven down to hell along with him.

The case of the fallen angels is largely relied upon:.--
"If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet. 2:4). ..
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6).

This is all the information we have on the subject. It is scanty and obscure, but, such as it is, it points in a very different direction and to a very different occurrence from that indicated in popular tradition. It does not tell of angels being expelled from heaven to engage in marauding expeditions against human interests and divine authority, wherever their caprice might lead them; but of disobedient angels, not necessarily in heaven, being degraded from their position, and confined in the grave against a time of judgment. It speaks of them as in custody, "in chains of darkness "--a metaphor highly expressive of the bondage of death--in which they are held and from which they will emerge, to be judged, at a time when the saints shall sit in judgment (I Cor. 6:3).
Superficial believers in the Miltonic antecedents of "the Prince of Darkness," quote Rev. 12:7, in proof of them :--
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon, and the Dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven; and the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

The things seen by John in "Revelation" were representative of events future to his time. This is evident from Rev. 4:1: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Hence, how absurd to quote any of his descriptions as applicable to an event alleged to have occurred before the creation of the world!

STAY TUNED....MORE TO COME!

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD
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heman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Reply with quote

heman wrote:
Notwithstanding: God controls the world;
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
19 ? And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees? excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
24 ? The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

And using the very same language we read:
Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

And the PURPOSE for the destruction of Tyre:
Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
What are we to understand by "the devil" so often mentioned in the Bible, and, spoken of in the "third personal pronoun, singular, masculine gender"? This is the question now demanding an answer, and the demand will be met by facts which will show the impossibility of the existence of the devil of popular superstition.
The theology of Christendom places the devil in juxtaposition with God.
It is the polytheism of paganism in its smallest form: and the philosophy of the ancients embodied in names and forms supplied by the Bible.
The doctrine of the devil has as intimate a bearing upon the truth of Christ as the doctrine of God.
First, the orthodox point of view:
He is the great nightmare, the great object of terror, the great fowler, with net-snare, exerting his utmost cunning and device--which are something superhuman--to entrap souls. Cruden describes him as "a most wicked angel, the implacable enemy and tempter of the human race... deadly in. his malice, surprisingly subtle possessing strength superior to ours, having a mighty number of principalities and powers under his command . . . He roves, full of rage, like a roaring lion, seeking to tempt, to betray, to destroy us, and to involve us in guilt and wickedness . . . In a word, he is an enemy to God and man, and uses his utmost endeavours to rob God of His glory, and men of their souls."
Common belief assigns something like omniscience to the evil being thus described; he is regarded as universally at work. He is also believed to be, in some sense, omnipotent, achieving his behests by a power superior to nature, and certainly more successfully than God in the mutual strife for human souls.
From the second point of view:
No one acquainted with the teaching of the New Testament will dispute, that it is necessary to understand and believe the truth concerning Christ. James, speaking of himself, and those who were Christ's, says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word o! truth" (James 1:18).
Now, this truth is styled "the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col. 1:5), "by which also ye are saved" (I Cor. 15: 2).
Therefore, the gospel consists of "the kingdom of God and those things that concern our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 28:31), elsewhere styled, "the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 8:12). From this it follows, that for a man to believe the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16), he must believe the truth concerning Jesus Christ. In view of this, let us ponder the following testimonies :--
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL" (I John 3:8).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL" (Heb.2:14).
Is it possible to believe the truth concerning Christ, and be ignorant of the nature of the devil that he was expressly manifested to destroy with his works? It is unnecessary to answer the question. It is necessary to put it for the purpose of shewing that the doctrine of the devil (in whatever form the truth of the matter may be found to exist) is so far from being an unimportant matter, that it is one of the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, ignorance of which argues a fatal want of knowledge in relation to the first of divine principles. The doctrine of the devil is not an "advanced" subject, but bears upon the most elementary aspects of divine truth.

Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those "men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).

In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle; death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (I Tim. 6:16).
Therefore, the angels which kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave), and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death)--(Jude 6; II Peter 2:2, 4), therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19).

An immortal rebel is an impossibility. With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). "In His hand is the life of every living thing" (Job12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death.
Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in the case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal. God is no respecter of persons, whether of men or angels.

Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person; "for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and must, therefore, have been mortal from the beginning.
The theory of an immortal, supernatural devil, who was once an angel, has an air of plausibility and consistency about it, when not scanned too closely; but the idea of a mortal devil--who never was anything but a sinner himself---entrusted 'with a general jurisdiction over other sinners (for it is said he has the power of death and disease), for the purpose, not of dispensing the divine law, but of antagonising the Deity in His dealings with the human race--doing all he can to afflict and damn those whom Deity is represented as striving to save, is something exceedingly difficult to conceive.

If this is the Bible devil, why was it necessary that Jesus should die to compass his destruction?
He took part of flesh and blood, that "THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14).
Why through death?
If the devil is a being separate from mankind, what had the immolation of flesh and blood on Calvary to do with the process of his destruction? If he were the strong, personal, active power of evil contended for, it wanted strength, and not weakness, to put him down. It wanted "the nature of angels," and not "the seed of Abraham," to enter into a successful encounter with "the personal power of darkness." But Jesus, to destroy him, was manifested in the flesh, and submitted to death. Victory crowned his efforts, and the devil was destroyed.

The doctrine of God's existence; of His creative power; of His relation to His universe, is not only implied in the appellations He appropriates to Himself, but expressly propounded. Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

The narrative of creation exhibits the natural serpent, "more subtle than any BEAST OF THE FIELD which the Lord God had made" (Gen. 3:1), as the tempter. The creature was endowed with the gift of speech (no doubt, specially with a view to the part it had to perform in putting our first parents to the test).
To suggest that the serpent was Satan in reptile form is again to go beyond the record, and enter a region where one guess or one assertion is as good as another.

The idea is forbidden by the sentence which condemns the serpent to eat dust all the days of its life. Paul evidently recognised nothing beyond the serpent in the transaction. "I fear," says he, "lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty," etc. (II Cor. 11:3).
Some people make a great difficulty about the serpent speaking; but surely there is as much difficulty about a serpent speaking under satanic inspiration as in one speaking by faculty divinely conferred for a purpose. If a "dumb ass, speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness" of a Balaam----(II Pet. 2:16)--why not a serpent be enabled to utter its thoughts when it was necessary to try the faithfulness of Adam and Eve? How otherwise could they be put to trial?
It is commonly believed that the devil was once a powerful arch-angel, and that he was driven out of heaven on account of his pride; after which, he applied his angelic energies to oppose God in all His schemes and movements, and do as much evil as he could in the universe, being assisted in this by a host of angelic sympathisers, who were driven down to hell along with him.

The case of the fallen angels is largely relied upon:.--
"If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet. 2:4). ..
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6).

This is all the information we have on the subject. It is scanty and obscure, but, such as it is, it points in a very different direction and to a very different occurrence from that indicated in popular tradition. It does not tell of angels being expelled from heaven to engage in marauding expeditions against human interests and divine authority, wherever their caprice might lead them; but of disobedient angels, not necessarily in heaven, being degraded from their position, and confined in the grave against a time of judgment. It speaks of them as in custody, "in chains of darkness "--a metaphor highly expressive of the bondage of death--in which they are held and from which they will emerge, to be judged, at a time when the saints shall sit in judgment (I Cor. 6:3).
Superficial believers in the Miltonic antecedents of "the Prince of Darkness," quote Rev. 12:7, in proof of them :--
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon, and the Dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven; and the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

The things seen by John in "Revelation" were representative of events future to his time. This is evident from Rev. 4:1: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Hence, how absurd to quote any of his descriptions as applicable to an event alleged to have occurred before the creation of the world!

Part II
The classes of people who refer to Rev 12 in support of a personal devil, also quote Isaiah 14:12-15, and Ezek. 28:11-15; but these Scriptures have even less to do with the subject than Rev. 12. In both cases, if the reader will read the whole chapter he will find the personage addressed is an earthly potentate--in one case the King of Babylon, and in the other, the Prince of Tyre.

No account of the existence of such an influence is exposed in God's extensive communing with His chosen nation. This is one of the strongest evidences that it is a fiction.
If there is no such devil, what are we to understand by "the devil" so often mentioned in the Bible, and, spoken of in the "third personal pronoun, singular, masculine gender"?

Devil, in the singular number, only occurs in the New Testament; Satan is found in both Old (4 times only) and New. This conclusion is borne out by its uses in the Hebrew Bible.

The first place where it occurs is Num. 22;22 :--"And God's anger was kindled because he (Balaam) went; and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary (SATAN) against him."
In this case, Satan was a holy angel. Understanding "Satan" to mean adversary in its simple and general sense, we can see how this could be; but, understanding it as the evil being of popular belief, it would be a different matter.

In one or two other cases, however, they have not translated the word, but simply transferred it in its Hebrew form, unaltered, to the English version, thus mystifying the idea of the original, and giving countenance to the popular satanic theory.

A notable instance of this is found in the narrative of Job's trials. "Satan" here plays a conspicuous part, and of course, the common English reader thinks of the creature variously denominated the Devil, or Lucifer. If you will substitute "the adversary" for "Satan," which is done marginally in recent editions of the Bible, he will read strictly according to the original, and escape popular theory of a devil.

But who was the adversary, it may be asked, who proved such a terror to Job, against whom he exerted such power?
He was not the arch-fiend, who is represented to be on the alert to catch immortal souls, and drag them into his fiery hold; for he had his eye on Job's estate and effects, and ultimately got his envious malice to take effect on Job's body.

The probability is he was a powerful magnate of the time--a professed fellow of the sons of God--but an envious and despiteful malignant, who looked on Job with evil eye, and sought to effect his ruin.
But, you say, what about the calamities of tempest and disease that befell Job? Was it in the power of a mortal man to control these?
The answer is these were God's doings, and not the adversary's. "Thou movedst ME against him, to destroy him without cause" (chapter 2:3).
This is the language in which God describes Satan's transaction in the matter.
It was God who inflicted the calamities at the adversary's instigation.
This is Job's view of the case: Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? "Have pity upon me, O ye my friends," says he, "THE HAND OF GOD hath touched me" (chapter 19:21). And the narrator, in concluding the book, says: "Then came there unto him all his brethren... and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM" (chapter 42:11).
God can delegate miraculous power even to mortal man.
The three other cases in which Satan is untranslated are the following :--
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
With regard to the first, the adversary seems to have been God; for we read in II Sam. 24:1, "The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and HE moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." The angel of God was a Satan to Balaam, as we have seen, and, in this case, God proved a Satan to Israel. Moved, doubtless, by the general perversity of the people, He impelled David to a course which resulted in calamity to the nation.
In the second case,
"Set thou a wicked man over him, and let Satan stand at his right hand" (Psa. 109:6).
it is evident that Satan (margin, an adversary) is synonymous with "wicked man" in the first half of the verse. The second part of the verse is the first part repeated in another form, as is so frequently the case in Hebrew writing, e.g., "He washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes." "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption."
On the same principle, a wicked man standing over the subject of David's imprecations, was the adversary standing at his right hand; of course, not the orthodox Satan.

Thirdly, As to the case of Joshua,
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem," etc. (Zech.3:1, 2).

Joshua, the high priest, the transaction in which "Satan" appeared against him was so highly symbolical (as anyone may see by reading the first four chapters of Zechariah), that we cannot suppose Satan, the adversary, stood for an individual, but rather as the representative of the class of antagonists against whom Joshua had to contend.
Ezra 4:1 Now when THE ADVERSARIES Of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel,
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and THE ADVERSARIES of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
The individual adversary seen by Zechariah, side by side with Joshua, represented this class-opposition to the work in which Joshua was engaged.

People think, if they cannot prove the existence of the devil from the Old Testament, they certainly can from the New, most abundantly. A critical consideration of the matter, however, will show that in this, they are entirely mistaken.
STAY TUNED....MORE TO COME!

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Reply with quote

Heman wrote:
Notwithstanding: God controls the world;

That same God controls your end also.

Yet, thanks to Christ i still felt at liberty to had spent labour day to give an answer of the hope i have in him. And had hoped that you also atleast taken a good glimpse if not reply to it point by point as i do to your replies.

1 Peter 3:10-17
10For whoso listeth to love life, and to see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips, that they speak not guile:  11Let him eschew evil and do good: let him seek peace, and ensue it.  12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord beholdeth them that do evil.  13Moreover who is it that will harm you if ye follow that which is good?  14Notwithstanding happy are ye if ye suffer for righteousness' sake. Nevertheless fear not though they seem terrible unto you, neither be troubled:  15but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts. Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that ye have, and that with meekness and fear:  16having a good conscience, that when they backbite you as evil doers, they may be ashamed, forasmuch as they have falsely accused your good conversation in Christ.  17It is better (if the will of God be so) that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.  



-- --------------------
heman wrote:

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
19 ? And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees? excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
24 ? The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

And using the very same language we read:
Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

And the PURPOSE for the destruction of Tyre:
Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.



? The original language was written in paragraph form and though we may quote verses at random, it still must be understood as a whole to be grasped.
Nevertheless here's those verses from the original authorised English Bible:

Quote:
Isaiah 13:11
And I will punish the wickedness of the world, and the sins of the ungodly, sayeth the LORD. The high stomachs of the proud will I take away, and will lay down the boasting of tyrants.

Isaiah 13:19
And Babylon (that glory of kingdoms and beauty of the Caldees' honor) shall be destroyed, even as God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra.

Isaiah 14:4-5
4Then shalt thou use this mockage upon the king of Babylon, and say: How happeneth that the oppressor leaveth off? Is the gold tribute come to an end?  5Doubtless the LORD hath broken the staff of the ungodly, and the scepter of the lordly.  

Isaiah 14:22-24
22I will stand up against them, (sayeth the LORD of Hosts) and root out the name and generation of Babylon (sayeth the LORD)  23and will give it to the Otters, and will make water puddles of it. and I will sweep them out with the besom of destruction, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.  24The LORD of Hosts hath sworn an oath, saying: It shall come to pass as I have determined: and shall be fulfilled as I have devised.  


Ezekiel 26:2-6
2Thou son of man, because that Tyre hath spoken upon Jerusalem: Aha, now I trow the ports of the people be broken, and she turned unto me, for I have destroyed my belly full.  3Yea therefore sayeth the Lord GOD: Behold O Tyre, I will upon thee, I will bring a great multitude of people against thee, like as when the sea ariseth with his waves:  4These shall break the walls of Tyre, and cast down her towers: I will scrape the ground from her, and make her a bare stone:  5Yea as the drying place, where the fishers hang up their nets by the sea side. Even I have spoken it, sayeth the Lord GOD. The Gentiles shall spoil her:  6her daughters upon the field shall perish with the sword, that they may know, how that I am the LORD.  

Ezekiel 28:2-3
2Thou son of man; Tell the prince of Tyre: Thus sayeth the Lord GOD, because thou hast a proud heart and hast said: I am a God, I have my seat in the middest of the sea like a God: where as thou art but a man, and not God, and yet standest in thine own conceit, that thou art God:  3Behold, thou thinkest thyself wiser than Daniel, that there is no secrets hid from thee.  

Ezekiel 28:12-17
12Thou son of man, make a lamentable complaint over the king of Tyre, and tell him: Thus sayeth the Lord GOD: Thou art a seal of a likeness, full of wisdom and excellent beauty.  13Thou hast been in the pleasure garden of God: thou art decked with all manner of precious stones: with Ruby, Topas, Crystal, Jacinth, Onyx, Jaspis, Sapphire, Smaragde, Carbuncle, and gold. Thy beauty and the holes that be in thee were set forth in the day of thy creation.  14Thou art a fair Cherub, stretched wide out for to cover. I have set thee upon the holy mount of God, there hast thou been, and walked among the fair glistering stones.  15From the time of thy creation thou hast been right excellent, till wickedness was found in thee.  16Because of thy great merchandise, thy heart is full of wickedness, and thou hast offended. Therefore will I cast thee from the mount of God (O thou covering Cherub) and destroy thee among the glistering stones.  17Thy heart was proud in thy fair beauty, and thorow thy beauty thou hast destroyed thy wisdom. I will cast thee down to the ground, and that in the sight of kings.  


----------------------
Heman wrote:

What are we to understand by "the devil" so often mentioned in the Bible, and, spoken of in the "third personal pronoun, singular, masculine gender"? This is the question now demanding an answer, and the demand will be met by facts which will show the impossibility of the existence of the devil of popular superstition.
The theology of Christendom places the devil in juxtaposition with God.


Code:
"juxtaposition" [L. juxta near + positio position:] A placing or being placed in nearness or contiguity, or side by side; as, a juxtaposition of words. --Noah Webster's dictionary


----------------------
Heman wrote:

It is the polytheism of paganism in its smallest form: and the philosophy of the ancients embodied in names and forms supplied by the Bible.
The doctrine of the devil has as intimate a bearing upon the truth of Christ as the doctrine of God.
First, the orthodox point of view:
He is the great nightmare, the great object of terror, the great fowler, with net-snare, exerting his utmost cunning and device--which are something superhuman--to entrap souls. Cruden describes him as "a most wicked angel, the implacable enemy and tempter of the human race... deadly in. his malice, surprisingly subtle possessing strength superior to ours, having a mighty number of principalities and powers under his command . . . He roves, full of rage, like a roaring lion, seeking to tempt, to betray, to destroy us, and to involve us in guilt and wickedness . . . In a word, he is an enemy to God and man, and uses his utmost endeavours to rob God of His glory, and men of their souls."
Common belief assigns something like omniscience to the evil being thus described; he is regarded as universally at work. He is also believed to be, in some sense, omnipotent, achieving his behests by a power superior to nature, and certainly more successfully than God in the mutual strife for human souls.


I don't care much about any theology.. but rather about how it is written in the Scriptures according to the spirit and not the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:4-6
4Such trust have we thorow Christ to Godward,  5not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as it were of ourselves: but our ableness cometh of God,  6which hath made us able to minister the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit: For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  



----------------------
Heman wrote:

From the second point of view:
No one acquainted with the teaching of the New Testament will dispute, that it is necessary to understand and believe the truth concerning Christ. James, speaking of himself, and those who were Christ's, says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word o! truth" (James 1:18).
Now, this truth is styled "the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col. 1:5), "by which also ye are saved" (I Cor. 15: 2).
Therefore, the gospel consists of "the kingdom of God and those things that concern our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 28:31), elsewhere styled, "the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 8:12). From this it follows, that for a man to believe the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16), he must believe the truth concerning Jesus Christ. In view of this, let us ponder the following testimonies :--
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL" (I John 3:8).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL" (Heb.2:14).
Is it possible to believe the truth concerning Christ, and be ignorant of the nature of the devil that he was expressly manifested to destroy with his works? It is unnecessary to answer the question. It is necessary to put it for the purpose of shewing that the doctrine of the devil (in whatever form the truth of the matter may be found to exist) is so far from being an unimportant matter, that it is one of the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, ignorance of which argues a fatal want of knowledge in relation to the first of divine principles. The doctrine of the devil is not an "advanced" subject, but bears upon the most elementary aspects of divine truth.

Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those "men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).

In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle; death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (I Tim. 6:16).
Therefore, the angels which kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave), and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death)--(Jude 6; II Peter 2:2, 4), therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19).

An immortal rebel is an impossibility. With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). "In His hand is the life of every living thing" (Job12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death.
Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in the case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal. God is no respecter of persons, whether of men or angels.

Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person; "for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and must, therefore, have been mortal from the beginning.
The theory of an immortal, supernatural devil, who was once an angel, has an air of plausibility and consistency about it, when not scanned too closely; but the idea of a mortal devil--who never was anything but a sinner himself---entrusted 'with a general jurisdiction over other sinners (for it is said he has the power of death and disease), for the purpose, not of dispensing the divine law, but of antagonising the Deity in His dealings with the human race--doing all he can to afflict and damn those whom Deity is represented as striving to save, is something exceedingly difficult to conceive.

If this is the Bible devil, why was it necessary that Jesus should die to compass his destruction?
He took part of flesh and blood, that "THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14).
Why through death?
If the devil is a being separate from mankind, what had the immolation of flesh and blood on Calvary to do with the process of his destruction? If he were the strong, personal, active power of evil contended for, it wanted strength, and not weakness, to put him down. It wanted "the nature of angels," and not "the seed of Abraham," to enter into a successful encounter with "the personal power of darkness." But Jesus, to destroy him, was manifested in the flesh, and submitted to death. Victory crowned his efforts, and the devil was destroyed.



Hope you would agree that spiritual matters must be in "juxtaposition" with spiritual things.

Take for ensample:

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, and of the sea: for the devil is come down unto you which hath great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


How can the devil know he has but a short time?


----------------------
Heman wrote:

The doctrine of God's existence; of His creative power; of His relation to His universe, is not only implied in the appellations He appropriates to Himself, but expressly propounded. Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

The narrative of creation exhibits the natural serpent, "more subtle than any BEAST OF THE FIELD which the Lord God had made" (Gen. 3:1), as the tempter. The creature was endowed with the gift of speech (no doubt, specially with a view to the part it had to perform in putting our first parents to the test).
To suggest that the serpent was Satan in reptile form is again to go beyond the record, and enter a region where one guess or one assertion is as good as another.

The idea is forbidden by the sentence which condemns the serpent to eat dust all the days of its life. Paul evidently recognised nothing beyond the serpent in the transaction. "I fear," says he, "lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty," etc. (II Cor. 11:3).
Some people make a great difficulty about the serpent speaking; but surely there is as much difficulty about a serpent speaking under satanic inspiration as in one speaking by faculty divinely conferred for a purpose. If a "dumb ass, speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness" of a Balaam----(II Pet. 2:16)--why not a serpent be enabled to utter its thoughts when it was necessary to try the faithfulness of Adam and Eve? How otherwise could they be put to trial?
It is commonly believed that the devil was once a powerful arch-angel, and that he was driven out of heaven on account of his pride; after which, he applied his angelic energies to oppose God in all His schemes and movements, and do as much evil as he could in the universe, being assisted in this by a host of angelic sympathisers, who were driven down to hell along with him.




hmm.. i wonder then what apostle Paul meant by:

2 Corinthians 11:3-6
3But I fear lest as the serpent beguiled Eve, thorow his subtlety, even so your wits should be corrupt from the singleness that is in Christ.  4For if he that cometh to you preach another Jesus than him whom we preached: or if ye receive another spirit than that which ye have received: either another gospel than that ye have received, ye might right well have been content.  5I suppose that I was not behind the chief apostles.   6Though I be rude in speaking, yet I am not so in knowledge. How be it among you we are known to the utmost what we are in all things.  



----------------------
Heman wrote:

The case of the fallen angels is largely relied upon:.--
"If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet. 2:4). ..
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6).

This is all the information we have on the subject. It is scanty and obscure, but, such as it is, it points in a very different direction and to a very different occurrence from that indicated in popular tradition. It does not tell of angels being expelled from heaven to engage in marauding expeditions against human interests and divine authority, wherever their caprice might lead them; but of disobedient angels, not necessarily in heaven, being degraded from their position, and confined in the grave against a time of judgment. It speaks of them as in custody, "in chains of darkness "--a metaphor highly expressive of the bondage of death--in which they are held and from which they will emerge, to be judged, at a time when the saints shall sit in judgment (I Cor. 6:3).
Superficial believers in the Miltonic antecedents of "the Prince of Darkness," quote Rev. 12:7, in proof of them :--
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon, and the Dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven; and the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."


What then doth Jesu Christ cast out during his ministry?

Matthew 8:14-17
14And Jesus went to Peter's house, and saw his wife's mother lying sick of a fever,  15and he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.  16When the even was come they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils, and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all that were sick,  17to fulfil that which was spoken by Esay the prophet saying: he took on him our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.  


And when and how did he mean by:
Luke 10:17-18
17 The seventy returned again with joy saying: Lord even the very devils are subdued to us thorow thy name.  18And he said unto them: I saw sathan, as it had been lightning, fall down from heaven.  



----------------------
Heman wrote:

The things seen by John in "Revelation" were representative of events future to his time. This is evident from Rev. 4:1: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Hence, how absurd to quote any of his descriptions as applicable to an event alleged to have occurred before the creation of the world!

STAY TUNED....MORE TO COME!


More than likely there could be more to Revelation than we may see at a first glance because:

I. John was in the spirit. So how are we to judge time here?

II. The chapters before Re 4:1 speak to the Congregations. Could it be speaking only to them back then or also till now?

Yea and how could we know what is more to come lest the heavenly father revealeth it to us in Christ?


_______________________________________
Intermission: Ironic we just cross posted..
Notwithstanding part ij. "due" contenuedth:


----------------------
heman wrote:


Part II
The classes of people who refer to Rev 12 in support of a personal devil, also quote Isaiah 14:12-15, and Ezek. 28:11-15; but these Scriptures have even less to do with the subject than Rev. 12. In both cases, if the reader will read the whole chapter he will find the personage addressed is an earthly potentate--in one case the King of Babylon, and in the other, the Prince of Tyre.

No account of the existence of such an influence is exposed in God's extensive communing with His chosen nation. This is one of the strongest evidences that it is a fiction.
If there is no such devil, what are we to understand by "the devil" so often mentioned in the Bible, and, spoken of in the "third personal pronoun, singular, masculine gender"?

Devil, in the singular number, only occurs in the New Testament; Satan is found in both Old (4 times only) and New. This conclusion is borne out by its uses in the Hebrew Bible.

The first place where it occurs is Num. 22;22 :--"And God's anger was kindled because he (Balaam) went; and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary (SATAN) against him."
In this case, Satan was a holy angel. Understanding "Satan" to mean adversary in its simple and general sense, we can see how this could be; but, understanding it as the evil being of popular belief, it would be a different matter.

In one or two other cases, however, they have not translated the word, but simply transferred it in its Hebrew form, unaltered, to the English version, thus mystifying the idea of the original, and giving countenance to the popular satanic theory.

A notable instance of this is found in the narrative of Job's trials. "Satan" here plays a conspicuous part, and of course, the common English reader thinks of the creature variously denominated the Devil, or Lucifer. If you will substitute "the adversary" for "Satan," which is done marginally in recent editions of the Bible, he will read strictly according to the original, and escape popular theory of a devil.

But who was the adversary, it may be asked, who proved such a terror to Job, against whom he exerted such power?
He was not the arch-fiend, who is represented to be on the alert to catch immortal souls, and drag them into his fiery hold; for he had his eye on Job's estate and effects, and ultimately got his envious malice to take effect on Job's body.

The probability is he was a powerful magnate of the time--a professed fellow of the sons of God--but an envious and despiteful malignant, who looked on Job with evil eye, and sought to effect his ruin.
But, you say, what about the calamities of tempest and disease that befell Job? Was it in the power of a mortal man to control these?
The answer is these were God's doings, and not the adversary's. "Thou movedst ME against him, to destroy him without cause" (chapter 2:3).
This is the language in which God describes Satan's transaction in the matter.
It was God who inflicted the calamities at the adversary's instigation.
This is Job's view of the case: Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? "Have pity upon me, O ye my friends," says he, "THE HAND OF GOD hath touched me" (chapter 19:21). And the narrator, in concluding the book, says: "Then came there unto him all his brethren... and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM" (chapter 42:11).
God can delegate miraculous power even to mortal man.
The three other cases in which Satan is untranslated are the following :--
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
With regard to the first, the adversary seems to have been God; for we read in II Sam. 24:1, "The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and HE moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." The angel of God was a Satan to Balaam, as we have seen, and, in this case, God proved a Satan to Israel. Moved, doubtless, by the general perversity of the people, He impelled David to a course which resulted in calamity to the nation.
In the second case,
"Set thou a wicked man over him, and let Satan stand at his right hand" (Psa. 109:6).
it is evident that Satan (margin, an adversary) is synonymous with "wicked man" in the first half of the verse. The second part of the verse is the first part repeated in another form, as is so frequently the case in Hebrew writing, e.g., "He washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes." "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption."
On the same principle, a wicked man standing over the subject of David's imprecations, was the adversary standing at his right hand; of course, not the orthodox Satan.

Thirdly, As to the case of Joshua,
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem," etc. (Zech.3:1, 2).

Joshua, the high priest, the transaction in which "Satan" appeared against him was so highly symbolical (as anyone may see by reading the first four chapters of Zechariah), that we cannot suppose Satan, the adversary, stood for an individual, but rather as the representative of the class of antagonists against whom Joshua had to contend.
Ezra 4:1 Now when THE ADVERSARIES Of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel,
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and THE ADVERSARIES of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
The individual adversary seen by Zechariah, side by side with Joshua, represented this class-opposition to the work in which Joshua was engaged.


Zechariah 3:2
And the LORD said unto Satan: The LORD reprove thee (thou Satan) yea the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem, reprove thee. Is not this a brand taken out of the fire?

Ezra 4:1-2
1But when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard, that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the LORD God of Israel,  2they came to Zorobabel and to the principal fathers, and said unto them: We will build with you: for we seek the Lord your God like as ye do. And we have done sacrifice unto him, since the time that Asor Hadon the king of Assur brought us up hither.  

Isaiah 11:13-16
13The hatred of Ephraim and the enmity of Judah shall be clean rooted out. Ephraim shall bear no evil will to Judah, and Judah shall not hate Ephraim:  14but they both together shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the West: and spoil them together that dwell toward the East. The Idumites and the Moabites shall let their hands fall, and the Ammonites shall be obedient unto them.  15The LORD also shall cleave the tongues of the Egyptian's sea, and with a mighty wind shall he lift up his hand over Nilus, and shall smite his seven streams and make men go over dry shod.  16And thus shall he make a way for his people, that remaineth from the Assirians, like as it happened to the Israelites, what time they departed out of the land of Egypt.  



----------------------
Heman wrote:

People think, if they cannot prove the existence of the devil from the Old Testament, they certainly can from the New, most abundantly. A critical consideration of the matter, however, will show that in this, they are entirely mistaken.
STAY TUNED....MORE TO COME!


If the Old Testament was already foretelling the happenings to come, wouldn't God also make the New Testament (being the fulfilment thereof) to be that much more important to preserve.
I'm afraid for you that don't acknowledge the sovereign providence of God capable of enduring the verity of his testimony as he promised from one generation to another. (i.e. Ps 100:5)

Notwithstanding, how did apostle Paul mean by:

1 Timothy 1:20
Of whose number is Himeneus, and Alexander, which I have delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Corinthians 5:3-5
3For I verily as absent in body, even so present in spirit, have determined already (as though I were present) of him that hath done this deed,  4in the name of our Lord Jesu Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ,  5to deliver him unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.  


One way or another, if you really want to find out if that's true, so be it.

_________________
Zechariah 4:6
He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? PART III Reply with quote

PART III Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble?
It is here where people think the word is most jealously cherished as the synonym of the popular "angel of the pit."
In the first place, if Satan is the popular devil, in what a curious light the following statement appears, addressed by Jesus, in the first century, to the church at Pergamos:--
"I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even WHERE SATAN'S SEAT IS: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLETH" (Rev. 2:13).

According to this, in the days of John, the apostle, Satan's headquarters were Pergamos, in Asia Minor. The fact is, the enemies of the truth were notably numerous, energetic, and powerful in that city, and indulged in relentless and successful persecution of those professing the name of Christ. This earned for the place. the fearful distinction of being styled by Jesus " (the adversary's) seat," and "the dwelling place of Satan" (the adversary).

Jesus, on a certain occasion, styled Peter "Satan ":--"But he turned, and said unto PETER, Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23; Mark 8:33; Luke 4:8).
Understanding "Satan" to mean adversary, we can comprehend this incident. In opposing the death of Christ, Peter was, therefore Satan, in the Bible sense.

This sense Christ actually defines: Thou (Peter) savourest (or favourest, or hast sympathy with) not the things that be of God but THOSE THAT BE OF MEN." Paul says, "Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto SATAN, that they may learn not to blaspheme" (1 Tim.1:20).
This also shows that the New Testament Satan is not the popular Satan: for no one ever hears of the popular Satan being employed by Christian teachers to correct the blasphemous propensities of reprobates.

The process of "delivering over to Satan," according to apostolic practice may be gathered from I Cor. 5:3-5:--
"For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed; in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
The meaning of this is, simply, the expulsion of the offender from the community of the believers.

This is evident from the verse immediately preceding those I have quoted: "Ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed MIGHT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM AMONG YOU "; and also the concluding sentence, "PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON" (verse 13). This was the apostolic recommendation in all cases of recalcitrance.

"Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).
To repudiate the fellowship of anyone, was to hand him over to the adversary, or Satan, because it was putting him back into the world, which is the great enemy or adversary of God. The object of this was remedial :-- "Have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother" (2 Thess. 3:14, I5).

The object of it, in the recommendation to the Corinthians, was "for the destruction of the flesh "--that is, the extirpation of the carnal mind in their midst: for he says immediately after, "A little leaven leaventh the whole lump. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. Put away from among yourselves that wicked person" 6-7, 13).

"Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again, but SATAN hindered us" (I Thess. 2:18). Who obstructed Paul's travels?
The enemies of the truth. On several occasions they watched the gates of the city where he was, to intercept and kill him. He crawled out of a window and was lowered in a basket to avoid risking a confrontation.

Paul mentions names: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil The Lord reward him according to his works. Of whom be thou ware also, for he hath greatly withstood our words" (II Tim. 4:14). "As Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth, men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith" (II Tim. 3:8). "Their word will eat as doth a canker, of whom is Hymenaeus and Phitetus" (II Tim. 2:17).

The orthodox devil took no part in the opposition which Paul encountered from these men. Who ever heard of Bunyan's "Apollyon" stopping him in the way, and defying him with arrows and terrors of the pit? Yet, if the New Testament Satan be the popular Satan, this ought to have been among his experiences.
"And after the sop, Satan entered into him. He then, having received the sop, went immediately out." (Judas)--(John 13:27).

If the Satan in the case was the popular Satan, the hard question would present itself,
Why was Judas punished for the devil's sin?
"It had been good for that man," said Jesus, "if he had not been born," showing that the in of Christ's betrayal was charged upon the man Judas.
There is another case where the sinful action of the human heart is described as the inspiration of "Satan" (Acts 5:3). Ananias and Sapphira went into the presence of the apostles with a lie on their lips; Peter said, "Ananias, why hath SATAN filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

The meaning of Satan filling the heart, crops out in the next sentence but one: "Why hast THOU conceived this thing in thine heart?" (verse 4); also in Peter's address to Sapphire, who came in three hours after Ananias. Peter said unto her, "How is it that YE HAVE AGREED TOGETHER to tempt the spirit of the Lord?" (verse 9). The action of the adversary in this case was the voluntary agreement of husband and wife.

James defines the process of sin as follows: "Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth death" (James 1:14, 15). Hence, the action of lust in the mind is the action of the New Testament Satan, or adversary.

All sin proceeds from the desires of the flesh.

"OUT OF THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness (this was the sin of Ananias), blasphemies," etc. (Matt. 15:19).
"The CARNAL MIND is enmity against God. IT is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom.8:7).
"For ALL that is in the world, the LUST of the FLESH, and the LUST of the EYES, and the PRIDE OF LIFE, is of the world" (I John 2:16).
If he surrender to the flesh, he walks in the way of death. "If ye live after the flesh ye shall die; but if ye, through the spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

Jesus recognises this fact in the parable of the sower. The seed fell into different kinds of soil. One is styled "good ground." In this, the seed grew well, and brought forth much fruit. In his explanation of the parable, Jesus defines the good ground to be "honest and good heart" (Luke 8:15).
Sometimes "Satan" will be found a person, sometimes the authorities, sometimes the flesh; in fact, whatever acts the part of an adversary is, scripturally, "Satan."
"Satan" is never the superhuman power of popular belief
STAY TUNED?..More to Come! The DEVIL YOU SAY?

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? PART III Reply with quote

Ironicaly some consciously avow: "the devil is in the details." And only because the adversary forces it's captives to do her/his dirty work; that doesn't make it's spiritual entity any less real, nor innocent.

Taking into account the spiritual aspect of the situation according to the passages, there must be a spiritual battle going on behind the physical.. yea let it be whomever being adressed in that sense. For ensample:
Luke 22:31-32
31And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired you, to sift you, as it were wheat:  32But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not. And when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.  


I just perceive that God alloweth things for a great terrible lesson to be learned, that'll be too late for his adversaries (let they be spiritually united against themselves or altogether against Christ).

1 Peter 5:8-9
8Be sober and watch, for your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:  9whom resist steadfast in the faith, remembering that ye do but fulfil the same afflictions which are appointed to your brethren that are in the world.  


Code:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack to fulfil his promise as some men count slackness: but is patient to us ward and would have no man lost, but would receive all men to repentance. <|and will not that any man should be lost, but that every man should amend himself|>

_________________
Zechariah 4:6
He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Part IV Reply with quote

PART IV ?THE DEVIL?
The orthodox believer, giving way to the Bible doctrine of Satanism herein set forth, is prone to cling to the word "devil" with the idea that here, at any rate, his darling theory is safe; that, under the broad shelter of this world-renowned term of theology, the personality of this arch-rebel of the universe is secure from the arrows of criticism.

We might summarily dispose of this illusion, by pointing to the fact that "devil," in many instances is used interchangeably and along with "Satan," and that therefore, the two stand or fall together.

"The original word diabolos comes from diabebola, the perfect tense, middle voice of diaballo, which is compounded of dia, through; and ballo, to cast; therefore meaning to dart or strike through; whence, in a figurative sense, it signifies to strike or stab with an accusation or evil report."

I Tim. 3:11 Paul tells the wives of deacons not to be devils. The words, as translated, are "Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers (diabolous)."; II Tim. 3:2,3 "For men shall be... without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers (diaboloi)"; Titus 2:3 "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers (diabolous)."

In all of which, as the reader will perceive by reading the passages, it is applied to human beings. As Jesus applied "Satan" to Peter, so he applied "devil" to Judas: "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is A DEVIL?" (John 6:70).

Jesus applied the term to the persecuting authorities in "The devil shall cast some of you into prison" (Rev. 2:10).
In the same book, the power of the world, politically organized on the sin-basis (introduced under the symbol of a dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns), is styled "that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan.

In these instances, the popular construction of the word "devil" is entirely excluded, and its meaning and use as a general term are illustrated.
First, demonstrate the fact of this personification. The evidence of it makes a powerful beginning in Heb. 2:14, where we read as follows:--
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might DESTROY him that had the power of death, THAT IS, THE DEVIL."

On the supposition that the devil here referred to is the orthodox devil, or a personal devil of any kind, there are four absurdities on the face of this passage.
First, to take on the weakness of flesh and blood was a strange way of preparing to fight a powerful devil or angel. Paul expressly says Jesus did not array himself in angelic powers; for he says, "He took not on him the nature of angels" (Heb.2:16).

It is stranger still that the process of destroying the devil should be submission to death himself if, the Bible devil had been the orthodox devil--a personal monster. The devil would now to be dead, or whatever else is imported by the word "destroyed."

How is it then, that the devil is clerically represented to be alive and busier than ever in the world today, hunting immortal souls? And the proposition that the popular devil has the "power of death!"

Who made Adam mortal?

Who punishes the infraction of divine law? It is He who says, "I kill, and I make alive" (Deut. 32:39).
God, and not the devil, reigns.

John says, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" (I John 3:8).

The devil that Christ has come to destroy is sin.

If anyone doubts this, let him reconsider Paul's words quoted above.
What did Christ accomplish in his death? Let the following testimonies answer:--
"He put away SIN by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26).

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3).

"He was wounded for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities" (Isa. 53:5).

"He was manifested to take away OUR SINS" (I John 3:5).

This is described as "God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3).

Sin in the flesh, then, is the devil destroyed by Jesus in his death.

This is the devil having the power of death, for it is sin, and nothing else but sin that causes death to men. Does anyone doubt this ? Let him read the following testimonies:

By one man sin entered into the world, and death BY sin" (Rom. 5:12)
"By man CAME DEATH (I Cor. 15:21).
"The wages of sin is DEATH" (Rom. 6:23).
"SIN hath reigned unto death" (Rom. 5:21).
"SIN... bringeth forth death" (James 1:15).
"The sting of death is SIN" (I Cor. 15:56).

But, the objector may say, True, sin is the cause of death; but who prompts the sin? Is it not here that the devil of popular belief has his work?

Nothing can be more directly met by a Bible answer:-- "Every man is tempted when he is drawn away OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (James 1:14, 15).

"ALL that is in the world" John defines to be "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (I John 2:16).

STAY TUNED?..More to Come!

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Does the LORD create evil or terrible trouble? Part IV Reply with quote

You may be reading too much into the physical meaning, and leaving the spiritual behind.

To be more specific God is sovereign, and it is Christ who rules now. And there are many enemies standing in his way who he quickly overcometh with the sword of his mouth soon. We can't be ignorant of the fact that:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 Now is Christ risen from death, and is become the first fruits of them that slept.  21For by a man came death, and by a man came resurrection of death.   22For as by Adam all die: even so by Christ, shall all be made alive,  23and every man in his own order: The first is Christ, then they that are Christ's at his coming.  24Then cometh the end, when he hath delivered up the kingdom to God the father, when he hath put down all rule, authority, and power.  25For he must rule till he have put all his enemies under his feet.  26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest, that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  28When all things are subdued unto him: then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all things.  


Yea that King David long ago already had proclaimed:

Psalms 8:1-9
1To the Chanter upon Githith, a Psalm of David. O LORD our governour: how wonderfull is thy name in all the world? how excellent is thy glory above the heavens.  2Out of the mouth of the very babes and sucklings, thou hast ordained praise, because of thine enemies, that thou mightest destroy the enemy and the avenger.  3For I consider thy heavens, even the work of thy fingers: the moon and the stars which thou hast made.  4Oh what is man, that thou art so mindful of him? either the son of man that thou visitest him?  5After thou hadst for a season made him lower than the angels, thou crownest him with honor and glory.  6Thou hast set him above the works of thy hands: and thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet.  7All sheep and oxen, yea and the beasts of the field.  8The fowls of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever walketh thorow the ways of the sea.  9O LORD our governour, how wonderful is thy name in all the world?  


Seeing then how that there's a reason to why and how things develop over time.. who are we to limit Scripture to a particular thing, when it can be much more than what is naturally supposed?

Hebrews 2:1-18
1Wherefore we ought much more to attend unto those things which we have heard, lest we perish.  2For if the word which was spoken by angels was steadfast: and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense to reward:  3how shall we escape if we despise so great health? which at the first began to be preached of the Lord himself, and after ward was confirmed unto us ward, by them that heard it;  4God bearing witness thereto, both with signs and wonders also, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the holy ghost, according to his own will.  5He hath not unto the angels put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak:  6but one in a certain place witnessed, saying: What is man, that thou art mindful of him: other the son of man, that thou visitest him?   7After thou hadst for a season made him lower than the angels: thou crownedst him with honour and glory, and hast set him above the works of thy hands.  8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. In that he put all things under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.  9Nevertheless we yet see not all things subdued unto him: but that Jesus which for a season was made less than the angels, we see thorow the punishment of death crowned with glory and honour: that he by the grace of God, should taste of death for all men.  10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, after that he had brought many sons unto glory, that he should make the Lord of their health perfect thorow afflictions:  11Forasmuch as he which sanctifieth, and they which are sanctified, are all of one. For which cause's sake he is not ashamed to call them brethren  12saying: I will declare thy name unto my brethren, and in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.  13And again: I will put my trust in him. And again: behold here am I and the children which God hath given me.  14Forasmuch then as the children were partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself like wise took part with them, for to put down thorow death him that had lordship over death that is to say the devil.  15And that he might deliver them which thorow fear of death all their life time were in danger of bondage.  16For he in no place taketh on him the angels: but the seed of Abraham taketh he on him.  17Wherefore in all things it became him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be merciful, and a faithful high priest in things concerning God, for to purge the people's sins.   18For in that he himself suffered, and was tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.  

_________________
Zechariah 4:6
He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.


Last edited by JAdmin on Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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