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heman
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Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA
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 Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| heman wrote: | | JAdmin wrote: | | Heman wrote: | | Sorry but the translators who numbered the verses placed the 12 in the wrong position; As a matter of fact there were no verses or punctuation in the Greek! |
Of course.. but you have no grounds to say "wrong position".
The first complete New Testament English translations by Wycliffe and Tyndale had no verses either. The reason why I have brought the original WT work in verse form is for easy comparison sake. Though it still makes sense when read as a whole by acknowledging what it says, and not just because it was translated from some old manuscripts that agreed altogether likewise. Yea rather again it is by comparing Scripture with Scripture as a holy whole according to the Law and the Testimony that makes it verity.
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| Heman wrote: |
Gal 5:11....κατηργηται {has been rendered useless} (2673)
το {the} σκανδαλον {cause of offense}(4625) του {the}
σταυρου {stake; cross}(4717) οφελον {to be in debt to}(3784)Strong's 3784 To owe, be in debt, be indebted to; 1) to owe 1a) to owe money, be in debt for 1a1) that which is due, the debt 2) metaph. the goodwill due
Hebrew Equivalent :
02326 bwx chowb khobe 1) a debt, debtor
12 And those disseminating religious error (387) to you shall be cut off!
The word for would is Strong's
1014 βουλομαι (WOULD) (1) to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded 2) of willing as an affection, to desire
2 Tim 2:16-18 The weight of responsibility is heavy on the minister. Not only is he to give instruction that is plain and clear, he is also to give instruction that is right on target so people do not get distracted by false doctrine. A minister can be perfectly sincere, but if he points his teaching toward the wrong goal, he will miss the target. Fortunately, our God is faithful and makes every effort to turn us toward the right goal.
These metaphors and illustrations show how important doctrine and having the right gospel are. Doctrine forms belief; belief determines action and character. Minimizing the future aspects of the gospel alters our vision of where we are going with our lives.
The future aspects of the gospel cannot be demoted in priority to second or third place without seriously compromising our Christian lives since it removes the right goal and deflects people away from the Kingdom of God. When people are deflected from the right goal, the teaching of the gospel changes, and God's creative process begins to wind down and may even stop entirely. |
You may think that makes you sound very smart, but nonetheless gives absolutely no edification whatsoever taking into account the real English expression:
| Galatians 5:11-12 | | 11Brethren if I yet preach circumcision: why do I then yet suffer persecution? For then had the offense which the cross giveth ceased. 12I would to God they were sundered from you which trouble you. |
| 2 Timothy 2:16-18 | | 16Unghostly and vain voices pass over. For they shall increase unto greater ungodliness, 17and their words shall fret even as doth a canker: of whose number is Hymeneos and Philetos, 18which as concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and do destroy the faith of divers persons. |
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Titus 3:1 -7 1REMIND PEOPLE to be submissive to [their] magistrates and authorities, to be obedient, to be prepared and willing to do any upright and honorable work,
2To slander or abuse or speak evil of no one, to avoid being contentious, to be forbearing (yielding, gentle, and conciliatory), and to show unqualified courtesy toward everybody.
3For we also were once thoughtless and senseless, obstinate and disobedient, deluded and misled; [we too were once] slaves to all sorts of cravings and pleasures, wasting our days in malice and jealousy and envy, hateful (hated, detestable) and hating one another.
4But when the goodness and loving-kindness of God our Savior to man [as man] appeared,
5He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6Which He poured out [so] richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.
7[And He did it in order] that we might be justified by His grace (by His favor, wholly undeserved), [that we might be acknowledged and counted as conformed to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action], and that we might become heirs of eternal life according to [our] hope.
Some definitions:
5623 wfelew ( οφιλε ) opheleo o-fel-eh'-o from the same as 5622; ; vAV-profit 11, prevail 2, better 1, advantage 1; 151) to assist, to be useful or advantageous, to profit
2 Cor 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought 3784 STRONG but actually is (ωφειλον 5623.1 PROFIT) to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5622 wfeleia opheleia o-fel'-i-ahfrom a derivative of the base of 5624; ; n f AV-profit 1, advantage 1; 2 1) usefulness, advantage, profit
1163 dei dei die
AV-must 58, ought 31, must needs 5, should 4, misc 7, vr ought 1;
5534 crh chre khray AV-ought 1; 1 1) it is necessary΄2) it behooves
Ro 13:8 Owe (3784) no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then {must ye needs (3784)} go out of the world.
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due (3784) benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should(3784) plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1 Cor 4: 8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God (3784) ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.(2309)
2 Cor 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2309 yelw thelo thel'-o or eyelw ethelo eth-el'-o in certain tenses yelew theleo thel-eh'-o and eyelew etheleo eth-el-eh'-o which are otherwise obsolete AV-will/would 159, will/would have 16, desire 13, desirous 3, list 3, to will 2, misc 4; 210
Heb 2:17 (5622) ωφειλε But Strongs incorrectly has it as 3784
Gal 5:11....κατηργηται {has been rendered useless} (2673)
το {the} σκανδαλον {cause of offense}(4625) του {the}
σταυρου {stake; cross}(4717) οφελον {to be in debt to}(3784) |
Word: οφελος
Pronounc: of'-el-os
Strong: G3786
Transliter: ophelos
from ophello (to heap up, i.e. accumulate or benefit); gain:--advantageth, profit.
Word: οφελον
Pronounc: of'-el-on
Strong: G3785
Transliter: ophelon
first person singular of a past tense of 3784; I ought (wish), i.e. (interjection) oh that!:--would (to God).
There are no words ending in ω !!!
The word for would= 1014 βουλομαι boulomai
To will, wish, intend, mean, want, would, desire, prefer, consent.
Word: οφελον it is a base form and a particle and past tense of 3784"that which is due, the debt".
3785 says: SEE 3784 (Septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible)
Word: οφειλομεν= 3784 AV-ought 15, owe 7, be bound 2, be (one's) duty 2, be a debtor 1, be guilty 1, be indebted 1, misc 7; 36
1) to owe; 1a) to owe money, be in debt for
1a1) that which is due, the debt; to be in debt; Rom 15:1; Acts 17:29; 2 Thess 1:3; 2:13;
1 Jn 3:16; 3 Jn 1:8
Word: οφειλετε= 3784 to be in debt; JN 13:14; 19:7
Word: οφειλειτε= 3784 to be in debt; owe you; be under obligation Rom 13:8
Word: ωοφειλετε= 5623.1 profit; 1 Cor 5:10
Word: οφειλην= 3782 debt; due; obligation 1 Cor 7:3
Word: οφειλει= 3784 amass wealth; to be in debt 1 Cor 7:36; 11:7,10; 2 Cor 12:14; Heb 5:3; 1 Jn 2:6
Word: οφειλι= 1 Cor 9:10; 11:10
Word: οφειλον= 3784 1 Cor 4:8; 2 Cor 11:1; Gal 5:12΄to be in debt; amass wealth
Word: οφειλοσ= 3786 Ja 2:14,16; 1 Cor 15:32 profit; advantage
Word: οφειλοντεσ= 3784 being obligated Heb 5:12
Word: ωοφειλον= 5623.1 profit; advantage; gain; advantage; benefit 2 Cor 12:11 see 3786
Word: οφειλουσιν= 3784 obligated Eph 5:28
Word: ωοφειλε= 5622 Heb 2:17 obliged; reconcillation
Word: ωοφειλεν= οφιλε 5623 Gal 5:2 benifit; to be useful
AS YOU CAN SEE these words are not related to the meaning of The word for would= 1014 βουλομαι boulomai
To will, wish, intend, mean, want, would, desire, prefer, consent.
_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD |
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JAdmin
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Heman wrote: | Titus 3:1 -7 1REMIND PEOPLE to be submissive to [their] magistrates and authorities, to be obedient, to be prepared and willing to do any upright and honorable work,
2To slander or abuse or speak evil of no one, to avoid being contentious, to be forbearing (yielding, gentle, and conciliatory), and to show unqualified courtesy toward everybody. |
Why then don't you take your own interpreted advice and stop slandering past authorities like Abraham Lincoln?
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| Heman wrote: | AS YOU CAN SEE these words are not related to the meaning of The word for would= 1014 βουλομαι boulomai
To will, wish, intend, mean, want, would, desire, prefer, consent. |
What's seen is how changing subject never will give an excuse to slander.
And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe lies: that all they might be damned which believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -2Th. 2:11-12
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| Heman wrote: | Word: οφελον it is a base form and a particle and past tense of 3784"that which is due, the debt".
3785 says: SEE 3784 (Septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible)
Word: οφειλομεν= 3784 AV-ought 15, owe 7, be bound 2, be (one's) duty 2, be a debtor 1, be guilty 1, be indebted 1, misc 7; 36
1) to owe; 1a) to owe money, be in debt for
1a1) that which is due, the debt; to be in debt; Rom 15:1; Acts 17:29; 2 Thess 1:3; 2:13;
1 Jn 3:16; 3 Jn 1:8 |
Ironic how it's so easy to misconstrue a Strong number of things when limiting it to something in particular.
Here's the whole definition of Strong's number 3784:
Modern updated Strongs:
Strong: G3784
Word: οφειλω
Pronounc: of-i'-lo
Transliter: opheilo
Use: TDNT-5:559,746 Verb
1) to owe
1a) to owe money, be in debt for
1a1) that which is due, the debt
2) metaph. the goodwill due
Original Strong's:
Strong: G3784
Word: οφειλω
Pronounc: of-i'-lo
or (in certain tenses), its prolonged form opheileo of-i-leh'-o, probably from the base of 3786 (through the idea of accruing); to owe (pecuniarily); figuratively, to be under obligation (ought, must, should); morally, to fail in duty:--behove, be bound, (be) debt(-or), (be) due(-ty), be guilty (indebted), (must) need(-s), ought, owe, should.
Strongs' numbers (along with other lexicons) can be a great resource, that is, if taken with a grain of sault knowing very well that languages change over time with it's expressions. No language is limited to a Lexicon or Dictionary thereof but to how, what, when, where, and why the people lawfully apply it.
I speak more than one language and thus acknowledge that many times a word for word translation will not always represent the right interpretation of a statement. Again languages have different expressions and when interpreting at times even require a change in tone altogether where appropriate.
In the case of the old Greek word like οφειλω, one doesn't even have to fluently speak Greek to acknoweldge that it can have diverse applications as pointed out in the unique NT passages where it was used.
Though at times there could be an exception to the case such as
| Hebrews 2:16-18 | | 16For he in no place taketh on him the angels: but the seed of Abraham taketh he on him. 17Wherefore in all things it became him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be merciful, and a faithful high priest in things concerning God, for to purge the people's sins. 18For in that he himself suffered, and was tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. |
At Heb 2:17 οφειλω pronounced opheilo as the original Strongs defines it as meaning also to behove. Notwithstanding, according to the passage; of course taking into account the verses before and after it, that is even more correctly expressed in English as: "it became him" implying an obligation from a lawful devise.
| Code: | 1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man seem <|think himself|> wise among you, let him be <|become|> a fool in this world, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: he compasseth the wise in their craftiness.
1Co 3:20 And again, God knoweth the thoughts of the wise that they be vain. |
_________________
| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
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heman
Banned!
Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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True, God also knows the hearts of those who Love Him.
This word is for edification and not for arguing, but contending earnestly for the "truth" of the meaning of Gal 5:11,12.
LOOK at verse 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. Does it not coincide with verse 12 and make more sense?.
c. ophelon (Adv. acc. to A.D.Adv.142.9, EM643.48) in this signf.: c. acc. et inf., ?moi eg?n, ophelon me . . olesthai Orph.A.1159 : even with 2 pers. of Verb, ophelon ebasileusate 1 Ep.Cor.4.8 , cf. 2 Ep.Cor.11.1, Ep.Gal.5.11,12; opheil? , ophelon: to owe, have to pay or account for
[11] Eg? de, adelphoi, ei peritom?n eti k?russ?, ti eti di?komai; ara kat?rg?tai to skandalon tou staurou Ophelon. [12] kai apokopsontai hoi anastatountes humas.
(www.perseus.tufts.edu/)
Parkhurst says: ?after all, it may be doubted whether the Greek language will admit of ophelon being construed with a future verb*** nor do I know that any one instance of such a construction has been yet produced from any approved Greek writer.
THE uncouthness of the phraseology in Gal 5:12, is further increased by the insertion of the particle και.
Bengelius in Gnomen reads as follows:? 12. And they shall be cut off that trouble you?.
This rendering has been adopted.
_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD |
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JAdmin
Moderator
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: sunder |
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My replies are to represent the faithofgod.net site, and the few faithful users that may come across it. And yea hope time well spent even out of love for your daughter.
| Galatians 5:10-12 | | 10I have trust toward you in God, that ye will be none otherwise minded. He that troubleth you shall bear his judgement, whatsoever he be. 11Brethren if I yet preach circumcision: why do I then yet suffer persecution? For then had the offense which the cross giveth ceased. 12I would to God they were sundered from you which trouble you. |
sundered is a very interesting English expression:
Noah Webster's 1913 RUD:
| Code: | \Sun"der\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Sundered}; p. pr. & vb.
n. {Sundering}.] [OE. sundren, AS. sundrain (in [=a]sundrain,
gesundrain), from sundor asunder, separately, apart; akin to
D. zonder, prep., without, G. sonder separate, as prep.,
without, sondern but, OHG. suntar separately, Icel. sundr
asunder, Sw. & Dan. s["o]nder, Goth. sundr[=o] alone,
separately.]
To disunite in almost any manner, either by rending, cutting,
or breaking; to part; to put or keep apart; to separate; to
divide; to sever; as, to sunder a rope; to sunder a limb; to
sunder friends.
It is sundered from the main land by a sandy plain.
--Carew.
\Sun"der\, v. i.
To part; to separate. [R.] --Shak.
\Sun"der\, n. [See {Sunder}, v. t., and cf. {Asunder}.]
A separation into parts; a division or severance.
{In sunder}, into parts. ``He breaketh the bow, and cutteth
the spear in sunder.'' --Ps. xlvi. 9.
\Sun"der\, v. t.
To expose to the sun and wind. [Prov. Eng.] --Halliwell. |
Notwithstanding, I or any other know absolutely nothing without Iesu Christ who strengthens the mind and heart; yea thank God for his shed blood at Calvary!
_________________
| Zechariah 4:6 | | He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts. |
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