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JAdmin
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: Christ Iesus came to save sinners of whom I am chief

Glory be to the heavenly father who brings to remembrance all things with great patience.

A great way to check the integrity of some Greek manuscripts (and the translations thereof) is to verify these parts as a whole thorowout:

Quote:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit which confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come (εληλυθοτα) in the flesh, is not of God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, of whom ye have heard, how that he should come: and even now already is he in the world.

- and -

Quote:

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, which confess not that Jesus Christ is como <(ερχομενον: as coming, or returning)> in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Ofcourse the blood of Christ was wholy shed upon the earth already.
(He is even in our flesh!)

Ephesians 1:7-8

7By whom we have redemption thorow his blood, that is to say the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8which grace he shed on us abundantly in all wisdom, and prudency.

And he is risen in the flesh and bones:

Luke 24:39

Behold my hands and my feet. For it is even I myself. Handle me and see. For spirits have not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Revelation 1:17-18

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet, even as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me: fear not. I am the first and the last, 18and am alive, and was dead. And behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys of hell and of death.

Iesu Christ has come in the flesh (εληλυθοτα, in His first Coming) and will come again in the flesh (ερχομενον, in His Second Coming).

2 Peter 3:3-13

3This first understand, that there shall come in the last days mockers ([in deceitfulness]) which will walk after their own lusts 4and say: Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers died all things continue in the same estate wherein they were at the beginning. 5This they know not (and that willingly) how that the heavens a great while ago were, and the earth that was in the water, appeared up out of the water by the word of God: 6by the which things the world that then was perished overflowen with the flood. 7But the heavens verily and earth which are now, are kept by the same word in store, and reserved unto fire, against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8Dearly beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, how that one day is with the Lord, as a thousand year, and a thousand year as one day. 9The Lord is not slack to fulfil his promise as some men count slackness: but is patient to us ward and would have no man lost, but would receive all men to repentance. 10Nevertheless the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which day, the heavens shall perish with terrible noise, and the elements shall melt with heat, and the earth with the works that are therein shall burn. 11If all these things shall perish, what manner persons ought ye to be in holy conversation, and godliness: 12looking for, and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, in which the heavens shall perish with fire, and the elements shall be consumed with heat. 13Nevertheless we look for a new heaven, and a new earth, according to his promise, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

James 5:13

Is there any among of you that is evil vexed? let him pray. Is there any among you that is merry? let him sing psalms.

Psalms 68

1To the chanter, a Psalm and song of David. Let God arise, so shall his enemies be scattered, and they that hate him, shall flee before him. 2Like as the smoke vanisheth, so shalt thou drive them away: and like as wax melteth at the fire, so shall the ungodly perish at the presence of God. 3But the righteous shall be glad and rejoice before God, they shall be merry and joyful. 4Oh sing unto God, sing praises to his name: magnify him that rideth above the heavens (whose name is the LORD) and rejoice before him. 5He is a father of the fatherless, he is a defender of widows: even God in his holy habitation. 6He is the God that maketh men to be of one mind in a house, and bringeth the prisoners out of captivity in due season, but letteth the runagates continue in scarceness. 7O God, when thou wentest forth before the people, when thou wentest thorow the wilderness. Selah: 8The earth shook, and the heavens dropped at the presence of God in Sinai, at the presence of God, which is the God of Israel. 9Thou, O God sendest a gracious rain, upon thine inheritance, and refreshest it, when it is dry. 10That thy beasts may dwell therein, which thou of thy goodness hast prepared for the poor. 11The Lord shall give the word, with great hosts of Evangelists. 12Kings with their armies shall flee, and they of the household shall divide the spoil. 13If so be that ye lie among the pales, the dove's feathers shall be covered with silver, and her wings the color of gold. 14When the Almighty setteth kings upon the earth, it shall be clear even in the darkness. 15The hill of Basan is God's hill, the hill of Basan is a plenteous hill. 16Why hop ye so, ye great hills? It pleaseth God to dwell upon this hill, yea the LORD will abide in it for ever. 17The chariots of God are many thousand times a thousand, the Lord is among them in the holy Sinai. 18Thou art gone up on high, thou hast led captivity captive, and received gifts for men: yea even for thine enemies, that they might dwell with the LORD God. 19Praised be the Lord daily, even the God which helpeth us, and poureth his benefits upon us. Selah. 20The God that is our Saviour, even GOD the Lord by whom we escape death. 21The God that smiteth the enemies upon the heads and upon the hairy scalps: such as go on still in their wickedness. 22The Lord hath said: some will I bring away from Basan, some will I bring again from the deep of the sea. 23That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and that thy dogs may lick it up. 24It is well seen, O God, how thou goest, how thou my God and King goest in the Sanctuary. 25The singers go before, and then the minstrels among the maidens with the tumbrels. 26O give thanks unto God the LORd in the congregation, for the wells of Israel. 27There little Benjamin, the princes of Judah, the princes of Zabulon, and the princes of Nephtali bear rule among them. 28Thy God hath committed strength unto thee, stablish the thing, O God, that thou hast wrought in us. 29For thy temple's sake at Jerusalem shall kings bring presents unto thee. 30Reprove the beasts among the reeds, the heap of bulls with the calves: those that drive for money. Oh scatter the people that delight in battle. 31The princes shall come out of Egypt, the Morians land shall stretch out her hands unto God. 32Sing unto God, O ye kingdoms of the earth: O sing praises unto the Lord. Selah. 33Which setteth in the heavens over all from the beginning: Lo, he shall send out his voice, yea and that a mighty voice. 34Ascribe ye the power unto God, his glory is in Israel, and his might in the clouds. 35God is wonderful in his Sanctuary, he is the God of Israel, he will give strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.

Isaiah 13:13

Moreover I will so shake the heaven, that the earth shall remove out of her place. Thus shall it go with Babylon in the wrath of the LORD of Hosts in the day of his fearful indignation.

Haggai 2:6

For thus sayeth the LORD of Hosts: yet once more will I shake heaven and earth, the sea, and the dry land:

Haggai 2:21

Speak to Zorobabel the prince of Juda, and say: I will shake both heaven and earth,

Hebrews 12:26

whose voice then shook the earth, and now declareth saying: yet once more will I shake, not the earth only, but also heaven.

Revelation 6:12-17

12And I beheld when he opened the sixth seal, and lo there was a great earthquake, and the sun was as black as sack cloth made of hair. And the moon waxed even as blood: 13and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth from her her figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And heaven vanished away, as a scroll when it is rolled together. And all mountains and isles, were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in dens, and in rocks of the hills, 16and said to the hills, and rocks: fall on us, and hide us from the presence of him that sitteth on the seat, and from the wrath of the lamb, 17for the great day of his wrath is come; And who can endure it.

Matthew 5:6

Blessed are they which hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they shall be filled.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: original tongue

JAdmin wrote:

The devout ought to take heed if boasting about wisdom in the complex words of Scripture (or even over-simplication) because it deviates from the Gospel's focus.

It also helps if it is translated correctly in the first place, since there is no literal Hell, but simply "the grave".

JAdmin wrote:

It is no wonder why Apostle Paul exhorted:

1 Corinthians 1:17-25

17For Christ sent me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should have been made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God. 19For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will cast away the understanding of the prudent. 20Where is the wise man? where is the scribe? where is the searcher of this world? Hath not God made the wisdom of this world foolishness? 21For when the world thorow wisdom knew not God, in the wisdom of God: it pleased God thorow foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the jews require a sign, and the greeks seek after wisdom. 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the jews an occasion of falling and unto the greeks foolishness: 24but unto them which are called both of jews and greeks we preach Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25For Godly foolishness is wiser than men: And Godly weakness is stronger than are men.

Though hell be "concealed"; nonetheless is also biblically taken for a hidden place beneath in the earth. (1Sa 2:6, Ps 139:8, Lk 16:19-31)

Isaiah 25:8

As for death he shall utterly consume it. The Lord GOD shall wipe away the tears from all faces, and take away the confusion of his people thorow the whole world. For the LORD himself hath said it.

Again brings to attention what WT adverted in his prologue of the New Testament from the original tongues:

Quote:

If ought seem changed, or not altogether agreeing with the Greek, let the finder of the fault consider the Hebrew phrase or manner of speech left in the Greek words. Whose preterperfect tense and present tense is oft both one, and the future tense is the optative mode also, and the future tense is oft the imperative mode in the active voice, and in the passive ever. Likewise person for person, number for number, and an interrogation for a conditional, and such like is with the Hebrews a common usage.

Thus 1Corinthians 15:55 bears to mind the prophesied Hebrew expression:

Quote:

Hosea 13:14 had not I defended him from the grave, and delivered him from death. O death, I will be thy death: O hell, I will be thy sting.

Quote:

1Co 15:54 When this corruptible hath put on incorruptibility: and this mortal hath put on immortality: then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is consumed into victory. <|then shall the word be fulfilled that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.|>
15:55 Death where is thy sting? Hell where is thy victory?
15:56 The sting of death is sin. <[:and]> The strength of sin is the law:
15:57 But thanks be unto God, which hath given us victory thorow our Lord Jesus Christ.

You will notice that after checking the Codex Vaticanus, the word αδη (Hades) is not included in the originals and actually reads "O death where is thy sting."
1Co 15:54 When this corruptible hath been clothed with incorruptibility: and this mortal hath been clothed with immortality: then will happen the word that is written:O Death is consumed into victory. <|then the word (λογος) will happen(γενησεται) that is written: Death is swallowed down (κατεποθη) (το drink up) into victory.|>
15:55 O death (θανατοσ)where is thy victory? O Death (θανατε) where is thy sting? ?
15:56 The sting of death is sin. <[:and]> The strength of sin is the law:
15:57 But thanks be unto God, which hath given us victory thorow our Lord Jesus Christ.

JAdmin wrote:

Revelation 1:17-18

And though there's a corrupt natural body and an uncorrupt spiritual body, that doesn't mean that the spiritual isn't also physical. Job proclaimed that well when he said:

Job 19:25-29

25For I am sure, that my redeemer liveth, and that I shall rise out of the earth in the latter day: 26that I shall be clothed again with this skin, and see God in my flesh. 27Yea I my self shall behold him, not with other but with these same eyes. My reins are consumed within me, 28when ye say: Why do not we persecute him? We have found an occasion against him. 29But beware of the sword, for the sword will be avenged of wickedness, and be sure, that there is a judgement.

Though flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God, that doesn't mean that men's mortality can't be changed to immortality at the resurrection, as did Jesu Christ's body after he rose from the dead:

Luke 24:36-46

36As they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: peace be with you. ([It is I, fear not]) 37And they were abashed, and afraid, supposing that they had seen a spirit. 38And he said unto them: Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39Behold my hands and my feet. For it is even I myself. Handle me and see. For spirits have not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands, and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them: Have ye here any meat? 42and they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and ate it before them. 44And he said unto them: These are the words, which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you: that all must be fulfilled which were written of me in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms. 45Then opened he their wits, that they might understand the scriptures, 46and said unto them: Thus is it written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from death the third day.

John 20:24-29

24 Thomas one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples said unto him: we have seen the Lord. And he said unto them: except I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger in the holes of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26And after eight days again, his disciples were with in, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came when the doors were shut, and stood in the midst and said: peace be with you: 27Than said he to Thomas: put in thy finger here, and see my hands, and put forth thy hand and thrust him into my side, and be not without faith: but believe. 28Thomas answered and said unto him: my Lord, and my God. 29Jesus said unto him: Thomas, because thou hast seen me, therefore hast thou believed: Happy are they that have not seen, and yet believe.

Quote:

? Dearly beloved believe not every spirit: but prove the spirits whether they are of God, or no: for many false prophets are gone out in to the world. Hereby shall ye know the spirit of God. Every spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God. And every spirit which confesseth not that Iesus Christ is come (εληλυθοτα) in the flesh, is not of God. And this is that spirit of Antichrist, of whom ye have heard, how that he should come: and even now already is he in the world.
1John 4:1-3

1Jo 4:2 .. "ιησουν χριστον εν σαρκι εληλυθοτα"

Iesus Christ is come (εληλυθοτα) in the flesh

Quote:

2Jo 1:5 And now beseech <|beseek|> I thee lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that same, which we had from the beginning, that we should love one another.
2Jo 1:6 And this is the love, that we should walk after his commandments. This commandment is (that as ye have heard from the beginning) ye should walk in it. <|walk therein|>
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into <|are come in to|> the world, which confess not that Jesus Christ is como <(ερχομενον: as coming, or returning)> in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 John 1:8-9

8Look on yourselves, that we loose not that we have wrought: but that we may have a full reward. 9Whosoever transgresseth and bideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that endureth in the doctrine of Christ, hath both the father, and the son.

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: original tongue

heman wrote:

JAdmin wrote:

The devout ought to take heed if boasting about wisdom in the complex words of Scripture (or even over-simplication) because it deviates from the Gospel's focus.

It also helps if it is translated correctly in the first place, since there is no literal Hell, but simply "the grave".

The Scriptures say that there is the literal Hell.
If hell was simply "the grave" then there wouldn't be a clear distinction between such words in Hebrew, Latin and Greek.
It was disccused in the topic to the grave with "hell" imaginations

No wonder WT (that first translated the English NT from the original tongues) wrote:

Which thing only moved me to translate the new testament. Because I had perceived by experience how that it was impossible to establish the lay people in any truth, except the scripture were plainly laid before their eyes in their mother tongue, that they might see the process, order, and meaning of the text: for else whatsoever truth is taught them, these enemies of all truth quench it again, partly with the smoke of their bottomless pit whereof thou readest Apocalypse .ix. that is, with apparent reasons of sophistry, and traditions of their own making, founded without ground of scripture, and partly in juggling with the text, expounding it in such a sense as is impossible to gather of the text, if thou see the process, order, and meaning thereof.

heman wrote:

The originals is according to the spirit, and not the letter. And I can't vouch for questionable codex texts that disagree in meaning with eachother.

Code:

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars? <|thistles|>

Scripture can not contradict Scripture.

Ho 13:14 had not I defended him from the grave, and delivered him from death. O death, I will be thy death: O hell, I will be thy sting.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

55Death where is thy sting? Hell where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin. The strength of sin is the law: 57But thanks be unto God, which hath given us victory thorow our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is that second death.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

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