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"the truth shall make you free."

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heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: "the truth shall make you free."

Amos 5:(10) 10They hate him who reproves in the [city] gate [holding him as an abomination and rejecting his rebuke], and they abhor him who speaks uprightly.

Amos confirms that the first thing that occurs if we really are undergoing transformation?if we have had an encounter with God?is that we will turn to God's truth.

Our attitude will change toward God's truth.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
The author of Psalm 119:97 says, Oh, how love I Your law! It is my meditation all the day.

He was in love with it. To him, it was so good to be able to look into God's Word. If a person loves something, what does he want to do with it? Talk about it! Share it with other people. Is that not what happens to the newly converted person? Indeed, it is. One can almost guage a person's conversion by how he loves the Word of God, for "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."

Ps 1: 2But his delight and desire are in the law of the Lord, and on His law (the precepts, the instructions, the teachings of God) he habitually meditates (ponders and studies) by day and by night

Amos states these truths so succinctly. All we need to do to understand it positively is to turn what he says around backward.

If we really do seek God, we are going to love His Word. We will hang on everything that comes out of His mouth?because we will see it for what it is. The most valuable thing a person can possess is the Word of God.
These people in Amos showed every evidence of a refusal to be governed by truth in their lives.

2Co 12:6 If I should want to boast, I shall not be unwise, for a passion of the truth. But now I abstain [from it]lest anyone should suppose of me beyond [is justified by] what he sees in me or hears from me.

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:58 am Post subject: Re: "the truth shall make you free."

As a whole (without any private interpretation) the truth shall make you free indeed:

Am 5:6 Seek the LORD, that ye may live: lest the house of Joseph be brent with fire and consumed, and lest there be none to quench Bethel.
Am 5:7 Ye turn the law to wormwood, and cast down righteousness into the ground.
Am 5:8 The LORD maketh the seven stars and the Orions, he turneth the night into day, and of the day he maketh darkness. He calleth the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the plain ground: the LORD is his name.
Am 5:9 He raiseth destruction upon the mighty people, and bringeth down the strong hold:
Am 5:10 but they owe him evil will, that reproveth them openly: and who so telleth them the plain truth, they abhor him.
Am 5:11 For so much then as ye oppress the poor, and rob him of his best sustenance: therefore, where as ye have builded houses of square stone, ye shall not dwell in them. Marvelous pleasant vineyards shall ye plant, but the wine of them shall ye not drink: and why?
Am 5:12 as for the multitude of your wickednesses and your stout sins, I know them right well. Enemies are ye of the righteous, ye take rewards, ye oppress the poor in judgement.
Am 5:13 Therefore the wise must now be fain to hold his tongue, so wicked a time is it.
Am 5:14 Seek after the thing that is good, and not evil, so shall ye live: yea the LORD God of hosts shall be with you, according to your own desire.
Am 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good: set up right again in the port: and (no doubt) the LORD God of hosts shall be merciful unto the remnant of Joseph.
Am 5:16 If no (sayeth the LORD God, the God of hosts) there shall be mourning in all streets, yea they shall say in every street: alas, alas. They shall call the husband man to lamentation, and such as can mourn, to mourning.
Am 5:17 In all vineyards there shall be heaviness, for I will come among you, sayeth the LORD.
Am 5:18 Woe be unto them that desire the day of the LORD: Wherefore would ye have it? As for that day of the LORD, it shall be dark and not clear:
Am 5:19 Yea like as when a man runneth from a lion, and a bear meeteth <|meteth|> with him: or when he cometh into the house, and leaneth his hand upon the wall, a serpent biteth him.
Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be dark, and not clear? shall it not be cloudy, and no shine in it?

John 8:20-36

20These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple. And no man laid hands on him; For his time was not yet come. 21Then said Jesus again unto them: I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins. Whither I go thither can ye not come. 22Then spake the jews: will he kill himself, because he saith: whither I go, thither can ye not come? 23And he said unto them: ye are from beneath, I am from above. Ye are of this world, I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins. For except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, who art thou? And Jesus said unto them: Even the very same thing that I say unto you. 26I have many things to say, and to judge of you. But he that sent me is true. And I speak in the world, those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake of his father. 28Then said Jesus unto them: When ye have lift up on high the son of man then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; But as my father hath taught me, even so I speak. 29And he that sent me is with me. My father hath not left me alone; For I do always those things that please him. 30As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31Then said Jesus to those jews which believed on him: If ye continue in my saying, then are ye my very disciples: 32and ye shall know the truth: And the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him: We be Abraham's seed, and were never bond to any man: why sayest thou then, ye shall be made free? 34Jesus answered them: verily, verily I say unto you, that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: But the son abideth ever. 36If the son therefore shall make you free, then are ye free in deed.

Psalms 119:97-104

97Mem. O what love have I unto thy law? all the day long is my talking of it. 98Thou thorow thy commandment hast made me wiser than mine enemies, for it is ever by me. 99I have more understanding than all my teachers, for thy testimonies are my study. 100Yea I am wiser than the aged, for I keep thy commandments. 101I refrain my feet from every evil way, that I may keep thy words. 102I shrink not from thy judgments, for thou teachest me. 103O how sweet are thy words unto my throat? Yea, more than honey unto my mouth. 104Thorow thy commandments I get understanding, therefore I hate all false ways.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

31Behold, the days come (sayeth the LORD) that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 32not after the covenant that I made with their fathers, when I took them by the hand, and led them out of the land of Egypt: which covenant they brake, wherefore I punished them sore, sayeth the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, sayeth the LORD: I will plant my law in the inward parts of them, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And from thence forth shall no man teach his neighbour or his brother, and say: Know the LORD: But they shall all know me, from the lowest unto the highest, sayeth the LORD. For I will forgive their misdeeds, and will never remember their sins any more.

1 John 2:27

And the anointing which ye have received of him dwelleth in you. And ye need not that any man teach you: but as that anointing teacheth you all things, and is true, and is no lie: and as it taught you, even so bide therein.

Psalms 1:1-6

1O Blessed is the man that goeth not in the counsel of the ungodly: that abideth not in the way of sinners, and sitteth not in the seat of the scornful. 2But delighteth in the law of the LORD, and exerciseth himself in his law, both day and night. 3Such a man is like a tree planted by the water side, that bringeth forth his fruit in due season. His leaves shall not fall off, and look whatsoever he doth, it shall prosper. 4As for the ungodly, it is not so with them: but they are like the dust, which the wind scattereth away from the ground. 5Therefore the ungodly shall not be able to stand in the judgment, neither the sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6For the LORD alloweth the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Corinthians 12:1-9

1It is not expedient for me no doubt to rejoice; Nevertheless I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ above fourteen years agone (whether he were in the body I cannot tell, or whether he were out of the body I cannot tell; God knoweth) which was taken up into the third heaven. 3And I know the same man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth) 4how that he was taken up into paradise, and heard words not to be spoken, which no man can utter. 5Of this man will I rejoice, of myself will I not rejoice, except it be of mine infirmities: 6and yet though I would rejoice I should not be a fool: for I would say the truth. Nevertheless I spare, lest any man should think of me above that he seeth me to be, or heareth of me. 7And lest I should be exalted out of measure thorow the abundance of revelations, there was given unto me of God unquietness of the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me: because I should not be exalted out of measure. 8For this thing besought I the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me: 9and he said unto me: my grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect thorow weakness. Very gladly therefore will I rejoice of my weakness, that the strength of Christ may dwell in me.

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2Co 12:9 and he said unto me: my grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect thorow <throu> weakness. Very gladly therefore will I rejoice of my weakness, that the strength of Christ may dwell in me.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: "the truth shall make you free."

JAdmin wrote:

John 8:20-36

Psalms 119:97-104

Jeremiah 31:31-34

1 John 2:27

Psalms 1:1-6

2 Corinthians 12:1-9

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Quote:

2 Cor 12:9 And he said to me: my favor is enough for thee; for the power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore rather I will boast in the weakness, so that the power of the Anointed may dwell upon me. (Papyrus 46)

Quote:

2Co 12:9 and he said unto me: my grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect thorow <throu> weakness.

It is not expedient for me no doubt to rejoice;
It is not profitable for me to boast, it is needful;

Quote:

Nevertheless I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

But also I will come for visions and revelations of the Lord.

Quote:

2I know a man in Christ above fourteen years agone (whether he were in the
body I cannot tell, or whether he were out of the body I cannot tell; God knoweth)

I knew a man fourteen years ago, whether with a body I do not know or beyond the body, I do not know; God knows

Quote:

which was taken up into the third heaven. 3And I know the same man

Such a one was snatched away unto the third heaven, And I know such a man

Quote:

(whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth)

whether in the body, or apart from the body; God knows

Quote:

4how that he was taken up into paradise, and heard words not to be spoken,

That he was seized into paradise, and heard unspoken things, spoken

Quote:

which no man can utter. 5Of this man will I rejoice,

which mankind is not permitted to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast

Quote:

of myself will I not rejoice, except it be of mine infirmities 6and yet

I will not boast of myself, if not in mine weaknessess:

Quote:

6and yet though I would rejoice I should not be a fool
for I would say the truth. Nevertheless I spare,

For if I should want to boast I shall not be unwise:
But to spare a passion for truth,

Quote:

lest any man should think of me above that he seeth me to be, or heareth of me. 7And lest I should be exalted out of measure thorow the abundance of revelations,

lest anyone should impute to me beyond what he sees of hears from me and to the excess of the revelations,

Quote:

there was given unto me of God unquietness of the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me: because I should not be exalted out of measure.

Therefore, was given unto me so I should not be elevated as an adversary messenger, a barb in the flesh, that it might punch me, that I might not be over elevated .

Quote:

8For this thing besought I the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me: 9and he said unto me: my grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect thorow weakness. Very gladly therefore will I rejoice of my weakness, that the strength of Christ may dwell in me

8Concerning this I enjoined the Lord thrice, that it might be removed from me: 9and he said unto me: my favor is enough for thee. For the power is perfected in weakness. I will most gladly therefore boast of my weakness, so that the power of Christ may dwell upon me
Jn 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.?

LATIN: Satanas, Belial, Beelzebub, Polycratia, primipilum; Adj. Σατανικός , ή, όν
adversary, opponent, LXX 3 Ki.11.14,23; plotting against transl. by ο επίβουλος in Latin Vulgate LXX 1 Ki.29.4; irati sunt autem adversus eum principes Philisthim et dixerunt ei revertatur vir et sedeat in loco suo in quo constituisti eum et non descendat nobiscum in proelium ne fiat nobis adversarius
cum proeliari coeperimus quomodo enim aliter placare poterit dominum suum nisi in capitibus nostris;
also accuser, transl. by ὁ διάβολος in Jb.1.6 quadam autem die cum venissent filii Dei ut adsisterent coram Domino adfuit inter eos etiam Satan; sq.,
Za.3.1: et ostendit mihi Iesum sacerdotem magnum stantem coram angelo Domini et Satan stabat a dextris eius ut adversaretur ei,
GREEK: πρωτοστολιστής, διάβολος slanderous, backbiting, επίβουλος ;επίβουλ-ος , ον, τοις καλοις Sup. -ότατος D. P.Mil.: Papiri Milanesi document 61επιβάλλοντός-- plotting against, Chr.10.7;

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: "the truth shall make you free."

Quote:

Jadmin wrote:

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heman wrote:

.. "boast in the weakness" makes absolutely no sense.

RATHER as originally translated in English the devout (even in such arrogant weakness of the flesh) still boast in the liberating strength of Christ the Lord!

Jadmin wrote:

---

Heman wrote:

It is not expedient for me no doubt to rejoice;
It is not profitable for me to boast, it is needful;

What is needful is the grace of God thorow Jesu Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:1

It is not expedient for me no doubt to rejoice; Nevertheless I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

Of course grace at divers times implies favor, though grace also more clearly expresses the exercise of love, kindness, and mercy bestowed to benefit and serve another.

Jadmin wrote:

Nevertheless I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

---

Heman wrote:

But also I will come for visions and revelations of the Lord.

For what?
According to the ensample of the Scriptures, the devout in Christ do not go get the visions but the visions come to him.

Jadmin wrote:

2I know a man in Christ above fourteen years agone (whether he were in the
body I cannot tell, or whether he were out of the body I cannot tell; God knoweth)

---

Heman wrote:

I knew a man fourteen years ago, whether with a body I do not know or beyond the body, I do not know; God knows

What the heck is "whether with a body"..

Of course a man in Christ must have a body!

1 John 4:2-3

2Hereby shall ye know the spirit of God. Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God. 3And every spirit which confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, of whom ye have heard, how that he should come: and even now already is he in the world.

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2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, which confess not that Jesus Christ is como <(as coming, or returning)> in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The questionable matter of 2Co 12:2 is simply Paul recalling if he had met in person or virtually (such as in a vision, the spirit or however the Lord allows to establish a connection), for ensample like today if we recall meeting somebody in person or online. Besides that even the term body can imply a variety of things in and out of itself.

1 Corinthians 15:40-58

40There are celestial bodies, and there are bodies terrestrial: But the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41There is one manner glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, an another glory of the stars. For one star differeth from another in glory. 42So is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, and riseth in incorruption. 43It is sown in dishonour, and riseth in honour. It is sown in weakness, and riseth in power. 44It is sown a natural body, and riseth a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. 45As it is written: The first man Adam was made a living soul: and the last Adam was made a quickening spirit: 46but that is not first which is spiritual: but that which is natural, and then that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: The second man is from heaven, heavenly. 48As is the earthy, such are they that are earthy: And as is the heavenly, such are they that are heavenly. 49And as we have born the image of the earthy, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly. 50This say I brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither doth corruption inherit uncorruption. 51Behold I shew a mystery unto you: we shall not all sleep: but we shall all be changed, 52and that in a moment, and in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall blow, and the dead shall rise incorruptible: And we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruptibility: and this mortal must put on immortality. 54When this corruptible hath put on incorruptibility: and this mortal hath put on immortality: then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is consumed into victory. 55Death where is thy sting? Hell where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin. The strength of sin is the law: 57But thanks be unto God, which hath given us victory thorow our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore my dear brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable, always rich in the works of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know how that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Jadmin wrote:

which was taken up into the third heaven. 3And I know the same man

---

Heman wrote:

Such a one was snatched away unto the third heaven, And I know such a man

I also met such a man online even in our present day. Regardless "snatched away" sounds like a claw just grabbed someone against their will, and thus does not give it justice because it sounds like a forceful action opposed to being taken up at liberty.

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Lu 17:20 When he was demanded of the pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come: he answered them and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with waiting for. <|outward appearance|>
Lu 17:21 Neither shall men say: Lo here, lo there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within <|inward in|> you.

Jadmin wrote:

(whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth)

---

Heman wrote:

whether in the body, or apart from the body; God knows

Apart sounds like something is left behind, while out of the body sounds more of a spiritual question, as Paul honestly implied "I cannot tell", otherwise your putting words in his mouth.

Brings to remembrance:

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Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples: The days will <|time shall|> come, when ye shall desire to see one day of the son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you: See here; See there. Go not after them, nor follow them,
Lu 17:24 for as the lightning that appeareth out of the one part of the heaven, and shineth unto the other part of heaven. <|lightening shineth above from the heaven, and lighteth over all that is under the heaven,|> So shall the son of man be in his days.
Lu 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be reproved <refused> of this nation.
Lu 17:26 As it happened <|came to pass|> in the time of Noe So shall it be in the time of the son of man.
Lu 17:27 They ate, they drank, they married wives and were married even unto the same day that Noe went into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Lu 17:28 Likewise also, as it chanced <|came to pass|> in the days of Lot. They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.
Lu 17:29 And even the same day that Lot went out of Zodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Lu 17:30 After these ensamples, shall the day be, <it be in the day> <|After this manner also shall it go|> when the son of man shall appear.
Lu 17:31 At that day he that is on the house top, <|roof|> and his stuff in the house: let him not come down to take it out. And likewise let not him that is in the fields, turn back again to that he left behind.
Lu 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Lu 17:33 Whosoever will go about to save his life, shall lose it: And whosoever shall lose his life, shall quicken <save> it.
Lu 17:34 I tell you: In that night, there shall be two in one bed, the <that> one shall be received, and the other shall be forsaken.
Lu 17:35 Two shall be also a grinding together: the one shall be received, and the other forsaken.
Lu 17:36 [Two in the field, the one shall be received, and the other forsaken.]
Lu 17:37 And they answered, and said to him: where Lord? And he said unto them: wheresoever The body shall be, thither will the eagles resort. <|Where so ever the dead carcase is there will the Aegles be gathered together|>

Jadmin wrote:

4how that he was taken up into paradise, and heard words not to be spoken,

---

heman wrote:

That he was seized into paradise, and heard unspoken things, spoken

"Seized" sounds very forceful again, and against the liberty in Christ.

Quote:

which no man can utter. 5Of this man will I rejoice,

---

Jadmin wrote:

which mankind is not permitted to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast

Rather elementary that it's no "mystery". To utter implies much more than speak, but to actually express it in the same majestic tone.

Jadmin wrote:

of myself will I not rejoice, except it be of mine infirmities 6and yet

---

Heman wrote:

I will not boast of myself, if not in mine weaknessess:

Weaknessess in English sounds very gender intrusive, and in the way you put it is very degrading to woman! For that goes against the deliverance for woman in the faith of Christ. Or have you not acknowledged to whom the risen Lord appeared first:

Code:

Mr 7:21 For from within even out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts: advoutry, fornication, <|whoredom|> murder,
Mr 7:22 theft, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, uncleanness, and a wicked eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mr 7:23 All these evil things, come from within, and defile a man.
Mr 7:24 And from thence he rose and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would that no man should have known of him: But he could not be hid.

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Joh 20:11 Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: <[And]> As she wept, she bowed herself into the sepulchre
Joh 20:12 and saw two angels clothed in white sitting the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where they had laid the body of Jesus.
Joh 20:13 <[And]> They said unto her: woman why weepest thou? She said unto them: <[For]> They have taken away my Lord, and I wot not where they have laid him.
Joh 20:14 When she had thus said, she turned herself back and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 20:15 Jesus said unto her: woman why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She supposing <|thought|> that he had been the gardener, said unto him: Sir if thou have borne him hence tell me where thou hast laid him, that I will take him away. <that I may fetch him.>
Joh 20:16 Jesus said unto her: Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him: Rabboni which is to say master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said unto her: touch me not, for I have <am> not yet ascended to my father. But go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my father, and your father: <[to]> my God and your God.
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken such things unto her.

Yea, now even the infirmities and weakness allowed to be given us by the power of Christ can overcome the world.

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1Co 1:25 For Godly foolishness is wiser than men: And Godly weakness is stronger than are men.

Jadmin wrote:

6and yet though I would rejoice I should not be a fool
for I would say the truth. Nevertheless I spare,

---

Heman wrote:

For if I should want to boast I shall not be unwise:
But to spare a passion for truth,

"spare a passion" sounds like English lukewarmness at it's peak. For in order to go along with the passage, spare in it's original sense implies: But I refrain my self, lest any man should think of me above that he seeth me to be.

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Ps 119:1 ((Aleph.)) Blessed are those that be undefiled in the way, which walk in the law of the LORD.
Ps 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with their whole heart.
Ps 119:3 Which walk in his ways, and do no wickedness.
Ps 119:4 Thou hast given straight charge to keep thy commandments.
Ps 119:5 O that my ways were stablished to keep thy statutes.
Ps 119:6 So should I not be confounded, while I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Ps 119:7 I will thank thee with an unfained heart, because I am learned in the judgements of thy righteousness.
Ps 119:8 I will keep thy statutes, O forsake me not utterly.

Jadmin wrote:

lest any man should think of me above that he seeth me to be, or heareth of me. 7And lest I should be exalted out of measure thorow the abundance of revelations,

---

Heman wrote:

lest anyone should impute to me beyond what he sees of hears from me and to the excess of the revelations,

Who can "impute" to you? Sounds like an outter apperance show of worldly religion with it's decrees that are nothing but men's precepts. For Paul is just being meek about how the Lord deals with him, and how people ought to perceive it.

Code:

Php 4:13 I can do all things thorow the help of Christ, which strengtheneth me.

Jadmin wrote:

there was given unto me of God unquietness of the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me: because I should not be exalted out of measure.

---

Heman wrote:

Therefore, was given unto me so I should not be elevated as an adversary messenger, a barb in the flesh, that it might punch me, that I might not be over elevated .

What is there to be elevated about an adversary!?

Is that type messenger an adversary of the real English? Now I know what is meant by that good old English saying here in the United States:
"The british are coming, the british are coming!"
Even William Tyndale (who's NT translation I quote) had to flee his own British soil because of such british nimrods that gave the real Great Britain a bad name.

Jadmin wrote:

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Heman wrote:

"enjoined"!? that sounds like it's giving the Lord orders.. what's next, babbled? This is serious, because the definition of enjoined implies to prohibit or forbid, or even directing or imposing with your own authority.

Quote:

\En*join"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Enjoined}; p. pr. & vb.
n. {Enjoining}.] [F. enjoindre, L. injungere to join into,
charge, enjoin; in + jungere to join. See {Join}, and cf.
{Injunction}.]
1. To lay upon, as an order or command; to give an injunction
to; to direct with authority; to order; to charge.

If you are the boss of your own Lord, is he still your Lord?
No wonder the good Lord said:

Code:

Mr 10:32 <[And]> They were in the way going up to Jerusalem. And Jesus went before them, and they were amazed, and as they followed, were afraid. And Jesus took the twelve again, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him.
Mr 10:33 Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and the son of man shall be delivered unto the high priests and unto the scribes: and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the gentiles,
Mr 10:34 and they shall mock him, and scourge him and spit upon him, and kill him, and the third day he shall rise again.
Mr 10:35 And <[then]> James and John the sons of Zebedee, came unto him, saying: Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we desire.
Mr 10:36 He said unto them: what would ye I should do unto you?
Mr 10:37 They said to him: grant unto us that we may sit one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mr 10:38 But Jesus said unto them: Ye wot not what ye ask. Can <|May|> ye drink of the cup, that I shall drink of? And be baptised in the baptism that I shall be baptised in? <|withall|>
Mr 10:39 And they said unto him: that we can. <|Yea that we may|> Jesus said unto them: ye shall drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and be baptised with the baptism that I shall be baptised in:
Mr 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand, is not mine to give, but to them for whom it is prepared.
Mr 10:41 And when the ten heard that, they began to disdain at James and John.
Mr 10:42 But Jesus called them unto him, and said to them: Ye know well that they which seem to bear rule among the gentiles, reign as lords over them. And they that be great among them exercise authority over them.
Mr 10:43 So shall it not be among you but whosoever of you will be great among you shall be your minister.
Mr 10:44 And whosoever will be chief, shall be servant unto all.
Mr 10:45 For even the son of man came, not that other should minister unto him: <not to be ministered unto:> but to minister, <|do service|> and to give his life for the redemption of many.

Quote:

Mt 7:21 Not all they that say unto me, master, master, <Lord, Lord> shall enter in to the kingdom of heaven: but he that fulfilleth <doeth> my father's will which is in heaven. ([He shall enter in to the kingdom of heaven])
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, master, <Lord, Lord> have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name have we not cast out devils? and in thy name have we not done many miracles. <And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name have done many miracles?>
Mt 7:23 And then will I knowledge unto them, that I never knew them. Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity.

-------------

Heman wrote:

Jn 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.?

With such watering down of the Scripture's truth, it is no wonder Pilate asked:

Code:

Joh 18:38 Pilate said unto him: what is truth? <what thinge is trueth?> And when he had said that, he went out again unto the jews, and said unto them: I find in him no cause at all.

Had the rulers known what is verity, they would never of crucified the Lord of Glory.

John 16:13-14

13 When he is once come (I mean the spirit of verity,) he will lead you into all truth. He shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew unto you.

---------------------

Heman wrote:

LATIN: Satanas, Belial, Beelzebub, Polycratia, primipilum; Adj. Σατανικός , ή, όν
adversary, opponent, LXX 3 Ki.11.14,23; plotting against transl. by ο επίβουλος in Latin Vulgate LXX 1 Ki.29.4; irati sunt autem adversus eum principes Philisthim et dixerunt ei revertatur vir et sedeat in loco suo in quo constituisti eum et non descendat nobiscum in proelium ne fiat nobis adversarius
cum proeliari coeperimus quomodo enim aliter placare poterit dominum suum nisi in capitibus nostris;
also accuser, transl. by ὁ διάβολος in Jb.1.6 quadam autem die cum venissent filii Dei ut adsisterent coram Domino adfuit inter eos etiam Satan; sq.,
Za.3.1: et ostendit mihi Iesum sacerdotem magnum stantem coram angelo Domini et Satan stabat a dextris eius ut adversaretur ei,
GREEK: πρωτοστολιστής, διάβολος slanderous, backbiting, επίβουλος ;επίβουλ-ος , ον, τοις καλοις Sup. -ότατος D. P.Mil.: Papiri Milanesi document 61επιβάλλοντός-- plotting against, Chr.10.7;

None of that "knowledge" matters without the wisdom for edification sake. Yea, why don't you take your own advice instead to plan "for the betterment of others".

Code:

Ga 2:6 Of them which seemed to be great (what they were in time passed it maketh no matter to me: God looketh on no man's person) <|For God looketh not on the outward appearance of men|> nevertheless they which seem <seemed> great, added nothing to me: <|taught me nothing|>

Notwithstanding, you can plan all you want, but the Everlasting Lord God of hosts has a bigger plan! Yea even this wise:

Matthew 21:28-46

28What say ye to this? A certain man had two sons, and came to the elder saying: go and work today in my vineyard. 29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward repented and went. 30Then came he to the second, and said like wise, and he answered and said: I will sir: yet went he not. 31Whether of these two fulfilled their father's will? And they said unto him: The first. Jesus said unto them: Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots shall come into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came unto you, in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not. But the publicans and the whores believed him. But ye (though ye saw it) yet were not moved with repentance, that ye might afterward have believed him. 33Hearken another similitude. There was a certain householder, which set a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and made a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a strange country. 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, to receive the fruits of it, 35and the husbandmen caught his servants, and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36Again he sent other servants more than the first, and they served them likewise. 37But last of all, he sent unto them his own son, saying: they will fear my son. 38 When the husbandmen saw his son, they said among them selves: This is the heir, come on let us kill him, and let us take his inheritance, to our selves. 39And they caught him and thrust him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord of the vineyard cometh: what will he do with those husbandmen? 41They said unto him: he will evil destroy those evil persons, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall deliver him his fruit at times convenient. 42Jesus said unto them: did ye never read in the scriptures? The same stone which the builders refused, is set in the principal part of the corner: this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes. 43Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to the Gentiles which shall bring forth the fruits of it. 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone, shall be alto broken. And whosoever this stone shall fall upon, he shall grind him to powder. 45And when the chief priests and pharisees heard these similitudes they perceived that he spake of them. 46And they went about to lay hands on him, but they feared the people, because they counted him as a prophet.

Mt 21:31 Whether of these two fulfilled their father's will? And they said unto him: The first. Jesus said unto them: Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots shall come into the kingdom of God before you.
Mt 21:32 For John came unto you, in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not. But the publicans and the whores believed him. But ye (though ye saw it) yet were not moved with repentance, that ye might afterward have believed him.

Quote:

2Ti 3:16 For all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable to teach, to improve, to inform, <amend> and to instruct in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfect, and prepared unto all good works.
2Ti 4:1 I testify therefore before God, and before the Lord Jesu Christ, which shall judge quick and dead <|the living and the deed|> at his appearing in his kingdom,
2Ti 4:2 preach the word, be fervent, be it in season, or out of season. Improve, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering. <[and doctrine]>
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come, when they will not suffer wholesome doctrine: but after their own lusts shall they (whose ears itch) get them an heap of teachers,
2Ti 4:4 and shall turn their ears from the truth, and shall be given unto fables:
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, and suffer adversity, and do the work of an evangelist, <|preacher of the Gospell|> fulfil thine office unto the utmost. ([Be sober.])

Code:

Mt 10:24 The disciple is not above his Master: Nor yet the servant above his Lord.
Mt 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to be as his Master is, and that the servant be as his Lord is. If they have called the Lord of the house beelzebub: how much more shall they call them of his household so?
Mt 10:26 Fear them not therefore. There is nothing so close, that shall not be opened, and nothing so hid, <|secret|> that shall not be known.
Mt 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light. And what ye hear in the ear that preach ye on the house tops.
Mt 10:28 And fear ye not them which kill the body, and be not able to kill the soul. But rather fear him, which is able to destroy both soul and body in <[to]> hell.

Yea, and eventually all hell thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:6-15

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. For on such shall the second death have no power, for they shall be the priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand year. 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8and shall go out to deceive the people which are in the four quarters of the earth Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle whose number is as the sand of the sea: 9and they went up on the plain of the earth, and compassed the tents of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God, out of heaven, and devoured them: 10and the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were and shall be tormented day and night for ever more. 11And I saw a great white seat and him that sat on it, from whose face fled away both the earth and heaven, and their place was no more found. 12And I saw the dead, both great and small stand before God: And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged of those things which were written in the books according to their deeds: 13and the sea gave up her dead, which were in her, and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to his deeds. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is that second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

Last edited by JAdmin on Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:15 pm; edited 4 times in total

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject:

Quote:

.. "boast in the weakness" makes absolutely no sense.
RATHER as originally translated in English the devout (even in such arrogant weakness of the flesh) still boast in the liberating strength of the Lord!

καυχ-άομαι , Dor. καυχέομαι Theoc.5.77; 2sg. καυχ-ασμαι in late Gr., as Ep.Rom.2.17, 23, pres ind mid/pass 2nd sg lateetc.: fut. -ήσομαι Hdt.7.39, Eup.134, Epicr.6: aor.
A.εκαυχησάμην Arist.Pol.1311b4 ; Aeol.opt.καυχάσαιτο Sapph.Supp.4.2 : pf. κεκαύχημαι 2 Ep.Cor.7.14 :--Act., EM527.1:-- speak loud, be loud-tongued, κ. παρὰ καιρόν Pi.O.9.38 , cf. Eup.l.c., etc.; boast, vaunt oneself, Ep.Rom.ll.cc.: c.acc. et inf., aor. or pres., boast that . . , Hdt. l. c., Epicr. l. c., etc.: c. part., boast of doing or being, Men.Mon.616, D.H.8.30; ότι . . Str.13.1.27: c. acc., boast of, Philem.141, 2 Ep.Cor.9.2: c.gen., εκαυχατο Phld. Vit. p.35 J.: c. dat., κάλλει AP12.234 (Strat.).

ασθέν-εια ,η, want of strength, weakness,ασθένειαν Ep.Gal.4.13; Ev.Matt.10.8, to be weak, feeble, sickly

It is not expedient for me no doubt to rejoice;
It is not profitable for me to boast, it is needful;

Quote:

What is needful is the grace of God thorow Jesu Christ.
Of course grace at divers times implies favor, though grace also more clearly expresses the exercise of love, kindness, and mercy bestowed to benefit and serve another

χάρις [α],η, gen. χάριτος: acc. χάριν, outward grace or fauour, more freq. on the part of the receiver, sense of favour received, Eph.3.2 ; Epicur.Sent.Vat.28 ; χ. τίνος; LXX 2 Ch.7.21, for the sake of, on behalf of, on account of,
Latin: gratia; love-charm, philter; gratification.

But also I will come for visions and revelations of the Lord.

Quote:

For what?
According to the ensample of the Scriptures, the devout in Christ do not go get the visions but the visions come to him.

1519 εις eis icea primary preposition; 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
"For" (as used in #Ac 2:38 "in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery," "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by favor and not by works.

I knew a man fourteen years ago, whether with a body I do not know or beyond the body, I do not know; God knows

Quote:

What the heck is "whether with a body"..
Of course a man in Christ must have a body!

That is not what he says:? ειτε εν σωματι? ; is it a corpse ?or a living body ?or does it cast a shadow or not???
1535 eite eite i'- ; conj , whether, or whether , if;
1722 en en a primary preposition 1) in, by, with etc
4983 σωματι somati neut, dat,sg;; 1a) a dead body or corpse; 1b) the living body
4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself;
instalment of a sum due PEleph.14.21 (iii B.C.).
1622 εκτος 1) outside, beyond
P.Tebt.: The Tebtunis Papyri document 970 σωματι

Such a one was snatched away unto the third heaven, And I know such a man

Quote:

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

whether in the body, or apart from the body; God knows

Quote:

Apart sounds like something is left behind, while out of the body sounds more of a spiritual question, as Paul honestly implied "I cannot tell", otherwise your putting words in his mouth.

χωρίς , also χωρί , q. v.: (v. χηρος):-- separately, apart,
Ro 8:35,39; 2. metaph., of different nature, kind, or quality,
That he was seized into paradise, and heard unspoken things, spoken

Quote:

"Seized" sounds very forceful again, and against the liberty in Christ.

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

which mankind is not permitted to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast

Quote:

Rather elementary that it's no "mystery". To utter implies much more than speak, but to actually express it in the same majestic tone

The word is actually 2980: λαλήσας to talk, chat, prattle, babble; aor part act masc voc sg attic epic ionic.

I will not boast of myself, if not in mine weaknessess:

Quote:

ασθέν-εια ,η, want of strength, weakness,ασθένειαν Ep.Gal.4.13; Ev.Matt.10.8, to be weak, feeble, sickly .
P.Oxy.: The Oxyrhynchus Papyri document 726

For if I should want to boast I shall not be unwise:
But to spare a passion for truth,

Quote:

The word is ερω΄passion

lest anyone should impute to me beyond what he sees of hears from me and to the excess of the revelations,

Quote:

λολοζομαι 3049 To number; to impute, make a charge; to consider,devise, think.

Therefore, was given unto me so I should not be elevated as an adversary messenger, a barb in the flesh, that it might punch me, that I might not be over elevated .

Quote:

What is there to be elevated about an adversary!?
Is that type messenger an adversary of the real English?

I should not be elevated are the actual words and that he would not exaggerate the revelations he was given and therefore become an adversary who spoke (as a messenger) any more than what he was shown to others. He was given a barb (SIN) in the flesh to keep him constantly aware of his human nature and not be overly self-inflated.

8Concerning this I called to the Lord thrice, that it might be removed from me: 9and he said unto me: my favor is enough for thee. For the power is perfected in weakness. I will most gladly therefore boast of my weakness, so that the power of Christ may dwell upon me

Quote:

You are correct the word is beseech or to call to I was following a translation and missed that one!

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:40 am Post subject:

If you limit God with partiality to the Greek (Latin or even Hebrew) language in manuscripts and translations thereof, that's your problem man.

Code:

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars? <|thistles?|>

Code:

2Co 13:7 I desire before God that ye do none evil, not that we should seem commendable: but that ye should do, that which is honest: <|good|> and let us be counted as lewd persons. <|cast aways|>
2Co 13:8 We can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
2Co 13:9 We are glad when we are weak, and ye strong. This also we wish for, even that ye were perfect. <|namely your perfectness|>

Of course he who boasts (with the Law and the Testimony as a holy whole) in the strength of Christ the Everlasting Lord, boasts best.. Specially seeing how that no scholarship can overcome HIS spirit in whatever language, yea let it be from you, me or any one at liberty in the right expression. Alleluya!

Bearing that in mind, will try to reply in a meeker tone, lest the unquieteness of the flesh get the upper hand.
We need to remind ourselves that we really are nothing without Christ.

--------------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

.. "boast in the weakness" makes absolutely no sense.
RATHER as originally translated in English the devout (even in such arrogant weakness of the flesh) still boast in the liberating strength of the Lord!

Heman wrote:

Regardless of any Greek thrown around, common sense will say the correct English expression is:

2 Corinthians 12:9

and he said unto me: my grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect thorow weakness. Very gladly therefore will I rejoice of my weakness, that the strength of Christ may dwell in me.

There's a big difference in "boasting in the weakness" and the correct "rejoicing of my weakness" to complete the passage that "the strength of Christ may dwell in me." For Saint Paul is eloquently expressing his boasting about the strength of Christ that overcomes the weakness.

--------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

It is not expedient for me no doubt to rejoice;
It is not profitable for me to boast, it is needful;

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

Saint Peter well said: "Of a truth, I perceive that God is not partial." -Ac. 10:34
The grace of God is not limited to how men interpret the word favor nowadays.. Notwithstanding, grace and favor in some passages could be interchanged, but with great caution not to insinuate that God has a respect of persons. Lest men fall out of favor with God and have favor of persons for vantage sake; being devoted to destruction.

-----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

But also I will come for visions and revelations of the Lord.

Jadmin wrote:

For what?
According to the ensample of the Scriptures, the devout in Christ do not go get the visions but the visions come to him.

Heman wrote:

In English the correct expression is "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord" because implies that it's a happening at the right timing of the Lord. "For" instead of "to" implies that Paul is coming for the visions, when in reality it is the visions that are a coming to Paul.

What violates the entire tenor of the NT teaching is to imply that men usurp the favor of God upon themselves, when in reality it is God who bestows his favor of salvation thorow his son Jesu Christ's blood on men; and not the other way around.

---------------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

I knew a man fourteen years ago, whether with a body I do not know or beyond the body, I do not know; God knows

Jadmin wrote:

What the heck is "whether with a body"..
Of course a man in Christ must have a body!

Heman wrote:

Like Paul, I can't tell, God knoweth.
For that's just a great ensample how scholarship has so distorted the ancient Greek that it's become a corpse, instead of the living body that it once used to be. Yea, glory be to God how he has devised even the English to far surpass the Greek a thousand fold in expressing his verity.

Quote:

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ above fourteen years agone (whether he were in the body I cannot tell, or whether he were out of the body I cannot tell; God knoweth) which was taken up into the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know the same man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth)

----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Such a one was snatched away unto the third heaven, And I know such a man

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

Only because part of the definition says it's carried off by force, notwithstanding that's not limited to a forceful action for the passage; but rather here depicts a force that carries up at liberty. And in regards to the Strongs; here's the whole original number derived from it that ironically leads to the Hebrew and the liberating meaning thereof:

Word: arpazw
Pronounc: har-pad'-zo
Strong: G726
Transliter: harpazo
from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Word: aireomai
Pronounc: hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Strong: G138
Transliter: haireomai
probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

Word: airw
Pronounc: ah'-ee-ro
Strong: G142
Transliter: airo
a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Word: נשא
Pronounc: naw-saw'
Strong: H5375
Transliter: nasa'
or nacah (Psalm 4 : 6 (7)) naw-saw'; a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absol. and rel. (as follows):--accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.

----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

whether in the body, or apart from the body; God knows

Jadmin wrote:

Apart sounds like something is left behind, while out of the body sounds more of a spiritual question, as Paul honestly implied "I cannot tell", otherwise your putting words in his mouth.

Heman wrote:

The Byzantine (4th Century) and other received texts say: εκτος

Strong: G1622
Word: εκτος
Pronounc: ek-tos'
Transliter: ektos
from 1537; the exterior; figuratively (as a preposition) aside from, besides:--but, except(-ed), other than, out of, outside, unless, without.

Code:

Word: εκ
Pronounc: ek
Strong: G1537
Transliter: ek
or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

----------------

Jadmin wrote:

"Seized" sounds very forceful again, and against the liberty in Christ.

Heman wrote:

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

See the Greek Strong's number 726 above and the derived Hebrew Strong number thereof.
Sounds almost prophetical how WT well said:
If ought seem changed, or not altogether agreeing with the Greek, let the finder of the fault consider the Hebrew phrase or manner of speech left in the Greek words.

---------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

which mankind is not permitted to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast

Jadmin wrote:

Rather elementary that it's no "mystery". To utter implies much more than speak, but to actually express it in the same majestic tone

Heman wrote:

The word is actually 2980: λαλήσας to talk, chat, prattle, babble; aor part act masc voc sg attic epic ionic.

Ironic how I said before, what's next: babble?

Rather, the original Strong's say:
Strong: G2980
Word: lalew
Pronounc: lal-eh'-o
Transliter: laleo
a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words:--preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare 3004.

Strong: G3004
Word: legw
Pronounc: leg'-o
Transliter: lego
a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:--ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.

According to the passage:

2 Corinthians 12:4

how that he was taken up into paradise, and heard words not to be spoken, which no man can utter.

In this case to utter emphasizes the tone importance.

-----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

I will not boast of myself, if not in mine weaknessess:

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

ασθέν-εια ,η, want of strength, weakness,ασθένειαν Ep.Gal.4.13; Ev.Matt.10.8, to be weak, feeble, sickly .
P.Oxy.: The Oxyrhynchus Papyri document 726

Sounds more slickly than sickly.

--------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

For if I should want to boast I shall not be unwise:
But to spare a passion for truth,

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

The word is ερω΄passion

Spare A passion, sounds like you got other passions that get in the way of THE passion.

---------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

lest anyone should impute to me beyond what he sees of hears from me and to the excess of the revelations,

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

λολοζομαι 3049 To number; to impute, make a charge; to consider,devise, think.

In this case according to the passage the word can be supposed otherwise. Besides it doesn't matter what men impute, but what God does seeing HE IS deserving of all glory thorow Jesu Christ our Lord.

Strong: G3049
Pronounc: log-id'-zom-ahee
Transliter: logizomai
middle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Strong: G3056
Pronounc: log'-os
Transliter: logos
from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

-------------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Therefore, was given unto me so I should not be elevated as an adversary messenger, a barb in the flesh, that it might punch me, that I might not be over elevated .

Quote:

What is there to be elevated about an adversary!?
Is that type messenger an adversary of the real English?

Heman wrote:

Sounds more than barbarous nonetheless.
What it actually says is opened to discussion (and at liberty in whatever language expression) without a private interpretation from any particular manuscript.

Quote:

12:7 και τη υπερβολη των αποκαλυψεων aδιο ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι εδοθη μοι σκολοψ τη σαρκι αγγελος aσατανα tsbσαταν ινα με κολαφιζη ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι
t - Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
s - Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
b - Byzantine Majority as identified by Von Soden and Hoskier,
and utilized by Hodges & Farstad, Robinson & Pierpont.
a - Alexandrian as identified by United Bible Society, 3rd ed.

Word: σκολοψ
Strong: G4647
Pronounc: skol'-ops
Transliter: skolops
perhaps from the base of 4628 and 3700; withered at the front, i.e. a point or prickle (figuratively, a bodily annoyance or disability):--thorn.

Strong: G4628
Pronounc: skel'-os
Transliter: skelos
apparently from skello (to parch; through the idea of leanness); the leg (as lank):--leg.
Strong: G3700
Pronounc: op-tan'-om-ahee
Transliter: optanomai, a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai op'-tom-ahee; which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of 3708 to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while 2300, and still more emphatically its intensive 2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and 4648 a watching from a distance):--appear, look, see, shew self.

Taking into account how that people put their faith in some particular manuscript, opposed to whom gave it, it's prophetical what Peter said:

2Pe 3:15 And suppose that the long suffering of the Lord is health, <salvation> even as our dearly beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given unto him, wrote to you,
2Pe 3:16 yea, almost in every pistel <almost in very pistle> speaking of such things: among which are many things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned, and unstable pervert, as they do other scriptures unto their own destruction. <|also, to their own damnation|>

And taking into account how the Lord adverted:

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars? <|thistles?|>

-------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

8Concerning this I called to the Lord thrice, that it might be removed from me: 9and he said unto me: my favor is enough for thee. For the power is perfected in weakness. I will most gladly therefore boast of my weakness, so that the power of Christ may dwell upon me

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

You are correct the word is beseech or to call to I was following a translation and missed that one!

Actually, taking into account that there may be an exception to certain cases; a certain Greek woman could teach us both according to the Lord:

Code:

Mark 7:25-30

25For a certain woman whose daughter had a foul spirit when she heard of him, came and fell down at his feet. 26The woman was a greek out of Syrophenicia, and she besought him that he would cast out the devil out of her daughter. 27 Jesus said unto her: let the children first be fed. It is not meet, to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto whelps. 28She answered and said unto him: even so Master, nevertheless, the whelps also eat under the table of the children's crumbs. 29And he said unto her: for this saying go thy way, the devil is gone out of thy daughter. 30And when she was come home to her house she found the devil departed, and her daughter lying on the bed.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

Last edited by JAdmin on Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:01 am Post subject:

----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Such a one was snatched away unto the third heaven, And I know such a man

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

Jadmin wrote:

COMPARE:
2 Cor 11:32 In <1722> Damascus <1154> the governor <1481> under Aretas <702> the king <935> kept <5432> <0> the city <4172> of the Damascenes <1153> with a garrison <5432> (5707), desirous <2309> (5723) to apprehend <4084> (5658) me <3165>:ἁρπάζω to snatch away, carry off; ηρπαγῃ̂ ; seizure, rapine, robbery, rape
726 arpazw harpazo har-pad'-zoAV-catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1; 131) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away
But the actual word as used is: Such a one was ηρπαγη (seized) away unto the third heaven

----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

whether in the body, or apart from the body; God knows

Jadmin wrote:

Apart sounds like something is left behind, while out of the body sounds more of a spiritual question, as Paul honestly implied "I cannot tell", otherwise your putting words in his mouth.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Code:

Wrong again, see below for the actual Alexandrian translation.
----------------

Jadmin wrote:

"Seized" sounds very forceful again, and against the liberty in Christ.

Heman wrote:

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

Jadmin wrote:

But the actual word as used is: Such a one was ηρπαγῃ̂ (seized) away unto the third heaven

---------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

which mankind is not permitted to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast

Jadmin wrote:

Rather elementary that it's no "mystery". To utter implies much more than speak, but to actually express it in the same majestic tone

Heman wrote:

The word is actually 2980: λαλήσας to talk, chat, prattle, babble; aor part act masc voc sg attic epic ionic.

Jadmin wrote:

Ironic how I said before, what's next: babble?

The original Strong's say:
Strong: G2980
Word: lalew
Pronounc: lal-eh'-o
Transliter: laleo
a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words:--preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare 3004.

Strong: G3004
Word: legw
Pronounc: leg'-o
Transliter: lego
a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:--ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.

According to the passage:

2 Corinthians 12:4

how that he was taken up into paradise, and heard words not to be spoken, which no man can utter.

In this case to utter emphasizes the tone importance.

Sorry! The word as used here is: 2980: λαλήσας to talk, chat, prattle, babble; aor part act masc voc sg attic epic ionic; 3. in later writers, = Ev.Matt.9.33;
The word for utter is:
φων-έω , ( [φωνή] ) A. produce a sound or tone: I. prop. of men, speak loud or clearly, or simply, speak, give utterance, Ev.Jo.13.13; II. c. acc. pers., call by name, call,
φων-ή , ἡ, A. sound, tone, prop., the sound of the voice, whether of men or animals with lungs and throat; I. mostly of human beings, speech, voice, utterance,

-----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

I will not boast of myself, if not in mine weaknessess:

Jadmin wrote:

Code:

Mr 16:9 When Jesus was risen the morrow after the Sabbath day, <|risen up early upon the first day of the Sabbaths|> he appeared first to Mary Magdalen, out of whom he cast seven devils.
Mr 16:10 And she went, and told them that were with him, as they mourned and wept.
Mr 16:11 And when <though> they heard, that he was alive, and <[he]> had appeared to her: they believed it not.
Mr 16:12 After that, he appeared unto two of them in a strange figure, as he <they> walked, and went into the country.
Mr 16:13 And they went, and told it to the remnant. And they believed them neither.
Mr 16:14 After that he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat: and cast in their teeth their unbelief, and hardness of heart: because they believed not them which had seen him after his resurrection.

Heman wrote:

ασθέν-εια ,η, want of strength, weakness,ασθένειαν Ep.Gal.4.13; Ev.Matt.10.8, to be weak, feeble, sickly .
P.Oxy.: The Oxyrhynchus Papyri document 726

Jadmin wrote:

Sounds more slickly than sickly..

--------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

For if I should want to boast I shall not be unwise:
But to spare a passion for truth,

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

The word is ερω΄passion

Jadmin wrote:

Spare A passion, sounds like you got other passions that get in the way of THE passion.

---------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

lest anyone should impute to me beyond what he sees or hears from me and to the excess of the revelations,

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

λολοζομαι 3049 To number; to impute, make a charge; to consider,devise, think.

Jadmin wrote:

The word used here is : λολισηται= one must impute; one must take into account, one must reason, one must calculate

-------------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Therefore, was given unto me so I should not be elevated as an adversary messenger, a barb in the flesh, that it might punch me, that I might not be over elevated .

Jadmin wrote:

What is there to be elevated about an adversary!?
Is that type messenger an adversary of the real English?

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Sounds more than barbarous nonetheless.
What it actually says is opened to discussion (and at liberty in whatever language expression) without a private interpretation from any particular manuscript.

12:7 και τη υπερβολη των αποκαλυψεων aδιο ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι εδοθη μοι σκολοψ τη σαρκι αγγελος aσατανα tsbσαταν ινα με κολαφιζη ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι
t - Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
s - Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
b - Byzantine Majority as identified by Von Soden and Hoskier,
and utilized by Hodges & Farstad, Robinson & Pierpont.
a - Alexandrian as identified by United Bible Society, 3rd ed.

I don?t think so, the actual Alexidrian translation reads as I quoted:

-------------------

Jadmin wrote:

Same difference; however, I stand corrected the definition for barb is SHARP PROJECTION!
σκόλοψ A. anything pointed: esp. pale, stake, 2. thorn, 2 Ep.Cor.12.7.

-------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

You are correct the word is beseech or to call to I was following a translation and missed that one!

Jadmin wrote:

Actually, taking into account that there may be an exception to certain cases; a certain Greek woman could teach us both according to the Lord:

Code:

Mark 7:25-30

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:24 am Post subject:

heman wrote:

There is no such biblical rule to limit a word to some particular meaning when it's definition is at liberty to express a thought dependant on the hearer.
Well did the Everlasting Lord say:

Matthew 13:13

Therefore speak I to them in similitudes. For though they see, they see not: and hearing they hear not: nether understand.

Code:

Isa 6:9 And so he said: Go, and tell this people: Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand, ye shall plainly see, and not perceive.

----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

whether in the body, or apart from the body; God knows

Jadmin wrote:

Apart sounds like something is left behind, while out of the body sounds more of a spiritual question, as Paul honestly implied "I cannot tell", otherwise your putting words in his mouth.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Code:

Heman wrote:

Wrong again, see below for the actual Alexandrian translation.

Your preference of manuscripts does not dictate the actual facts. Yea (so the hearer may know) the fact of the matter is that the Byzantine text is in the actual line of manuscripts that the original Strong's dictionary was based on.

----------------

Quote:

Jadmin wrote:

"Seized" sounds very forceful again, and against the liberty in Christ.

Heman wrote:

726 αρπαζς harpazo 1) to seize, carry off by force 3) to snatch out or away

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

But the actual word as used is: Such a one was ηρπαγῃ̂ (seized) away unto the third heaven

Sounds like some Greek manuscript has thrice abducted you into captivity...

I just thank God the Everlasting Lord that he is rather the force of liberty to allow us to evaluate ALL manuscripts.

---------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

which mankind is not permitted to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast

Jadmin wrote:

Rather elementary that it's no "mystery". To utter implies much more than speak, but to actually express it in the same majestic tone

Heman wrote:

The word is actually 2980: λαλήσας to talk, chat, prattle, babble; aor part act masc voc sg attic epic ionic.

Jadmin wrote:

2 Corinthians 12:4

how that he was taken up into paradise, and heard words not to be spoken, which no man can utter.

In this case to utter emphasizes the tone importance.

Heman wrote:

What's to be sorry is not allowing an exception to the case (specially taking into account that the ancient Greek was more at liberty than today to express it's wisdom).
As i pointed out, the original Strong's definition for 2980 also says "to utter words" that may imply a great significance of expressing the words with a phenomenal utterance, in this instance the uttered talk beyond our comprehension, at the moment that is.

-----------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

I will not boast of myself, if not in mine weaknessess:

Jadmin wrote:

Code:

Heman wrote:

ασθέν-εια ,η, want of strength, weakness,ασθένειαν Ep.Gal.4.13; Ev.Matt.10.8, to be weak, feeble, sickly .
P.Oxy.: The Oxyrhynchus Papyri document 726

Heman wrote:

Sounds more slickly than sickly..

Before the moderating, at first I really thought you had written slickly..

Code:

Ga 4:13 Ye know well how that thorow infirmity of <|in weakness after|> the flesh, I preached the gospel <gospell> unto you at the first:
Ga 4:14 and my temptation which I suffered by reason of my flesh, ye despised not, neither abhorred: but received me as an angel of God: yea as <|yea even as|> Christ Jesus.

Nonetheless, having partiality to a document does not make me any dumber or you any smarter.

--------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

For if I should want to boast I shall not be unwise:
But to spare a passion for truth,

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

The word is ερω΄passion

Jadmin wrote:

Spare A passion, sounds like you got other passions that get in the way of THE passion.

I too have divers passions, but thank God that he has still given me liberty to utilize them for my first love alway.

---------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

lest anyone should impute to me beyond what he sees or hears from me and to the excess of the revelations,

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

λολοζομαι 3049 To number; to impute, make a charge; to consider,devise, think.

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

The word used here is : λολισηται= one must impute; one must take into account, one must reason, one must calculate

Man, is God limited to the imputed Greek language!? ofcourse not.

1Co 1:21 For when the world thorow wisdom knew not God, in the wisdom of God: it pleased God thorow foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

-------------------

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Therefore, was given unto me so I should not be elevated as an adversary messenger, a barb in the flesh, that it might punch me, that I might not be over elevated .

Jadmin wrote:

What is there to be elevated about an adversary!?
Is that type messenger an adversary of the real English?

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

I don?t think so, the actual Alexidrian translation reads as I quoted:

What's above is simply the mss variants thereof.

-------------------

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

Same difference; however, I stand corrected the definition for barb is SHARP PROJECTION!
σκόλοψ A. anything pointed: esp. pale, stake, 2. thorn, 2 Ep.Cor.12.7.

Notwithstanding.. there's someone SHARPer.

Revelation 1:11-18

11saying: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. That thou seest write in a book, and send it unto the congregations which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thiatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicia. 12And I turned back to see the voice that spake to me. And when I was turned: I saw seven golden candlesticks. 13And in the midst of the candlesticks, one like unto the son of man clothed with a linen garment down to the ground, and gird about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head, and his hairs were white, as white wool, and as snow: and his eyes were as a flame of fire: 15and his feet like unto brass, as though they brent in a furnace: and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars. And out of his mouth went a two edged sword. And his face shone even as the sun in his strength. 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet, even as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me: fear not. I am the first and the last, 18and am alive, and was dead. And behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys of hell and of death.

Even for you and yours:

Code:

Re 2:12 And to the angel <messenger> of the congregation in Pergamos write: This saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges.
Re 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Sathan's seat is, and thou keepest my name and hast not denied my faith. And in my days Antipas was a faithful witness of mine, which was slain among you where sathan dwelleth.
Re 2:14 But I have a few things against thee: that thou hast there, they that maintain, the doctrine of Balaam which taught in Balak, to put occasion of sin before the children of Israel, that they should eat of meat dedicated unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Re 2:15 Even so hast thou them that maintain the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Re 2:16 But repent <be converted> or else I will come to <unto> thee shortly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. <mought>
Re 2:17 Let him that hath ears hear what the spirit sayth unto the congregations: To him that overcometh will I give to eat Manna that is hid, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth, saving he that receiveth it.

Quote:

On that fearful note this post is closed.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

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