DAVAR :: View topic - THE PLAIN TRUTH

DAVAR
Hebrew Dictionary Forum

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

THE PLAIN TRUTH
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

DAVAR -> Forum Index -> Original Tongues

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Take Heed and Beware

JAdmin wrote:

Matthew 10:4

Simon of Chane, and Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him.

Friend, as the thoughts of Satan were unknown to Simon of Chane, and Judas Iscariot.. so are they unknown unto you according to your demonstration thereof. But I perceive that one of them repented.

2 Corinthians 2:9-11

9For this cause verily did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye should be obedient in all things. 10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also. And verily if I forgive any thing, to whom I forgave it for your sakes forgave I it, in the room of Christ, 11lest Satan should prevent us. For his thoughts are not unknown unto us.

----------------------

heman wrote:

Job 24:25 And if it be not so now, who will make me a liar, and make my speech nothing worth?

That's exactly how i feal when understood as a whole:

Job 24:18-25

18The ungodly is very swift: O that his portion also upon earth were swifter than the running water, which suffereth not the shipman to behold the fair and pleasant vineyards. 19O that they (for the wickedness which they have done) were drawn to the hell, sooner than snow melteth at the heat. 20O that all compassion upon them were forgotten: that their dainties were worms, that they were clean put out of remembrance, and utterly hewn down like an unfruitful tree. 21For they maintain the barren, and make them that they can not bear, and unto widows they do no good. 22They pluck down the mighty with their power, and when they themselves are gotten up, they are never without fear, as long as they live. 23And though they might be safe, yet they will not receive it, for their eyes look upon their own ways. 24They are exalted for a little, but shortly are they gone, brought to extreme poverty, and taken out of the way: yea and utterly plucked off, as the ears of corn. 25Is it not so? Who will then reprove me as a liar, and say that my words are nothing worth.

----------------------

Heman wrote:

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Not Jesus or anyone else.

If that's not rejecting the son, i don't know what is.

Proverbs 30:4

Who hath climbed up into heaven? Who hath come down from thence? Who hath holden the wind fast in his hand? Who hath comprehended the waters in a garment? Who hath set all the ends of the world? What is his name, or his son's name? Canst thou tell?

Why did God create heaven and earth to begin with?

If taken the passage for it's knowledge said in Christ, it'll make perfect sense:

Ephesians 1:3-8

3Blessed be God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which hath blessed us with all manner of spiritual blessings in heavenly things by Christ, 4according as he had chosen us in him thorow love, before the foundation of the world was laid, that we should be saints, and without blame in his sight. 5And ordained us before unto him self that we should be chosen to heirs thorow Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, where with he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7By whom we have redemption thorow his blood, that is to say the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8which grace he shed on us abundantly in all wisdom, and prudency.

Colossians 1:13-20

13Which hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son, 14in whom we have redemption thorow his blood, that is to say, forgiveness of sins, 15which is the image of the invisible God, first begotten before all creatures: 16for by him were all things created, things that are in heaven, and things that are in earth: things visible, and things invisible: whether they be majesty or lordship, either rule or power. 17All things are created by him, and in him, and he is before all things, and in him all things have their being. 18And he is the head of the body, that is to wit of the congregation, he is the beginning and first begotten of the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the father that in him should all fullness dwell, 20and by him to reconcile all things unto himself, and to set at peace by him thorow the blood of his cross both things in heaven and things in earth.

---------

heman wrote:

Matt 13:(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. (30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So be it!

----------------------

Heman wrote:

All of God's saints should heed this warning to watch and pray that the field of our heart not be sown with tares by an adversary. God has bought us with a price and given us His Spirit, making us new creations in Him and heirs the inheritance and eternal life. He expects us to bear fruit in our corner of the field of this world in which He has sowed us.

Was just thinking about that this evening..
but why change from the post's point flow at hand into a saint's exhortation?
Notwithstanding..

John 9:4

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day. The night cometh, when no man can work.

Even if I may have as many fleshy tares as KING DAVID, or even ALEXANDER THE GREAT.. that did not stop their faith and neither will that stop my faith in Christ.

Matthew 12:29-31

29Either how can a man enter into a mighty man's house, and violently take away his goods, except he first bind the strong man, and then spoil his house? 30He that is not with me, is against me: And he that gathereth not with me, scattereth abroad. 31Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy against the holy ghost, shall not be forgiven unto men.

1 John 4:4

Little children, ye are of God, and have overcome them: for greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

John 8:7

And while they continued asking him, he lifted himself up; And said unto them: let him that is among you without sin, cast the first stone at her.

1 John 1:10

If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

YEA WITHOUT CHRIST WE ARE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

All things are lawful unto me: but all things are not profitable. I may do all things: but I will be brought under no man's power. -1Co 6:12

This world rejects it's true rulers, and makes a mockery out of them in religion, entertainment, scholarship, or what have you..
Yet Job patiently well said:

Job 19:25-29

25For I am sure, that my redeemer liveth, and that I shall rise out of the earth in the latter day: 26that I shall be clothed again with this skin, and see God in my flesh. 27Yea I my self shall behold him, not with other but with these same eyes. My reins are consumed within me, 28when ye say: Why do not we persecute him? We have found an occasion against him. 29But beware of the sword, for the sword will be avenged of wickedness, and be sure, that there is a judgement.

Matthew 21:28-31

28What say ye to this? A certain man had two sons, and came to the elder saying: go and work today in my vineyard. 29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward repented and went. 30Then came he to the second, and said like wise, and he answered and said: I will sir: yet went he not. 31Whether of these two fulfilled their father's will? And they said unto him: The first. Jesus said unto them: Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots shall come into the kingdom of God before you.

2 Corinthians 13:5-7

5Prove yourselves whether ye are in the faith or not. Examine your own selves: know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you? except ye be castaways. 6I trust that ye shall know that we are not castaways. 7I desire before God that ye do none evil, not that we should seem commendable: but that ye should do, that which is honest: and let us be counted as lewd persons.

guess Tyndale missed this one?
Mat 24:36. Add "nor the Son" after "heaven". L T WH N NA
SEE (www.bible-researcher.com) ( www.zhubert.com/) (www.biblegateway.com/)
London, Brit. Libr., Add. 43725 300 A.D. ? 399 B.C. SEE (www.stoa.org/bible)

So, Tyndale is "INSPIRED" ? Did Tyndale have the "ORIGINALS" ?

W TYNDALE Matt 24:36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my father only.

"He translated straight from the Hebrew and Greek originals"
Sure he did from: Erasmus' Greek text was based upon three of the cursive manuscripts 10 to 15th Century.

New Testament, 1526. William Tyndale, based upon Erasmus 1522, with reference to the Latin Vulgate.

It is now widely accepted by textual scholars that the selection of manuscripts available to Erasmus was quite limited ...being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality.

Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

_________________
"The Singer"
1Ch 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of HEMAN, THE KING'S SEER IN THE WORDS OF GOD

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Take Heed and Beware

Heman wrote:

guess Tyndale missed this one?
Mat 24:36. Add "nor the Son" after "heaven". L T WH N NA

Only because a gospel account did not include a detail in another account, that doesn't mean that it's any less truer.
Yes, as Tyndale faithfully translated:

Mark 13:32

But of the day and the hour, knoweth no man: no not the angels which are in heaven: neither the son himself, save the father only.

Besides, my father only is plain enough that it is the father of Jesu Christ that only knoweth.

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my father only.

----------------------

Heman wrote:

So, Tyndale is "INSPIRED" ? Did Tyndale have the "ORIGINALS" ?

According to his prologues, it is clear WT never admited such a thing as the so called "Originals". Howbeit he did acknowledge God's sovereign providence in the transmission of the Scriptures from which he faithfully translated.

Yes, today we can say the William Tyndale like every other martyr before and after Christ were indeed inspired. What other inspiration is there other than that a man bestow his life for his friends!?

---------------------

Heman wrote:

"He translated straight from the Hebrew and Greek originals"
Sure he did from: Erasmus' Greek text was based upon three of the cursive manuscripts 10 to 15th Century.

I don't know who you are quoting.. But again it is not correct to call anything the "originals", because God can express his truth however he uniquely chooses from generation to generation.. thus he never needed any so called "originals".
Rather it is lawful to say that William Tyndale translated from the original tongues of the Scriptures.

Code:

Joh 19:20 This title<superscription> read many of the jews. For the place where Jesus was crucified, was nigh to the city. And it was written in hebrew, greek and latin.

---------------------

Heman wrote:

New Testament, 1526. William Tyndale, based upon Erasmus 1522, with reference to the Latin Vulgate.

Tyndale rather used the Latin from Erasmus faithful OLD LATIN compilation way before Jerome. Yea even since Christ, and the same old Latin tongue that even the faithful Centurion spoke in.

---------------------

Heman wrote:

It is now widely accepted by textual scholars that the selection of manuscripts available to Erasmus was quite limited ...being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality.

Is your trust in Scholars?

Psalms 118:8

It is better to trust in the LORD, than to put any confidence in man.

Psalms 14:1-7

1To the chanter, a Psalm of David The foolish bodies say in their hearts: Tush, there is no God. They are corrupt, and become abominable in their doings, there is not one that doth good. 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that would understand and seek after God. 3But they are all gone out of the way, they are all together become unprofitable: there is none that doth good, no not one. 4How can they have understanding, that work mischief, eating up my people, as it were bread, and call not upon the LORD? 5Therefore shall they be brought in great fear, for God standeth by the generation of the righteous. 6As for you, ye have made a mock at the counsel of the poor, because he putteth his trust in the LORD. 7Oh that the saving health were given unto Israel out of Sion. Oh that the LORD would deliver his people out of captivity. Then should Jacob rejoice, and Israel should be right glad.

----------------------

Heman wrote:

Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

Is it fair to call Erasmus work the "Textus Receptus" when that sort of name developed thereafter? .. (and since such compilations aftewards were without the Old Latin of which was side by side with Erasmus Greek compilation as a witness?!)

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Take Heed and Beware

JAdmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

guess Tyndale missed this one?
Mat 24:36. Add "nor the Son" after "heaven". L T WH N NA

Only because a gospel account did not include a detail in another account, that doesn't mean that it's any less truer.
Yes, as Tyndale faithfully translated:

Mark 13:32

But of the day and the hour, knoweth no man: no not the angels which are in heaven: neither the son himself, save the father only.

Besides, my father only is plain enough that it is the father of Jesu Christ that only knoweth.

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my father only.

----------------------

Heman wrote:

So, Tyndale is "INSPIRED" ? Did Tyndale have the "ORIGINALS" ?

The phrase originals or "uncial MSS", refers to all of the important old manuscripts of the Greek text made prior to the tenth century, which are written in large capital letters.

Quote:

Yes, today we can say the William Tyndale like every other martyr before and after Christ were indeed inspired. What other inspiration is there other than that a man bestow his life for his friends!?

You mean he had the power of the Holy Spirit to resurrect from the dead?

Quote:

---------------------

Heman wrote:

"He translated straight from the Hebrew and Greek originals"
Sure he did from: Erasmus' Greek text was based upon three of the cursive manuscripts 10 to 15th Century.

Quote:

Code:

Joh 19:20 This title<superscription> read many of the jews. For the place where Jesus was crucified, was nigh to the city. And it was written in hebrew, greek and latin.

---------------------

Heman wrote:

New Testament, 1526. William Tyndale, based upon Erasmus 1522, with reference to the Latin Vulgate.

Tyndale rather used the Latin from Erasmus faithful OLD LATIN compilation way before Jerome. Yea even since Christ, and the same old Latin tongue that even the faithful Centurion spoke in.

Erasmus, 1516. Desiderius Erasmus, Dutch Catholic scholar and humanist noted for Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

Robert Estienne (Stephens 1550) in his influential third edition (1550), which in turn provided the basis for all editions later published by Beza (1565-98), subsequently followed by the translators of the King James version. The editions of Elzevir (1624, 1633) also derived from Erasmus 1527, as mediated by Estienne and Beza.

Beza was chiefly indebted, but rather to the previous edition of the eminent Robert Estienne (1550), itself based in great measure upon one of the later editions of Erasmus.

Elzevir, 1624. [Isaac Elzevir], Dutch printers and publishers, Novum Testamentum Gr?ce practically a reprint of the text of Beza 1565. The Elzevirs' 1633 edition became known as the "Textus Receptus"

---------------------

Heman wrote:

Quote:

Is your trust in Scholars?

My trust is in the guidance of the God of me to decipher the MSS in which he directs me.
Ps 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. 4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Quote:

Psalms 118:8

It is better to trust in the LORD, than to put any confidence in man.

Psalms 14:1-7

----------------------

Heman wrote:

Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

Fair or not that is the fact of the matter:
Erasmus, 1516. Desiderius Erasmus, Dutch Catholic scholar and humanist noted for Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale. (www.Bible-researcher.com)

We are of God; that is why those who know God listen to us. If they do not know God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception (1 John 4:6)

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Take Heed and Beware

Heman wrote:

The phrase originals or "uncial MSS", refers to all of the important old manuscripts of the Greek text made prior to the tenth century, which are written in large capital letters.

That sounds like an oxymoron because it's a big assumption to imply something is "more truer" in importance only due to it's age and appearance when in the Scriptures there's no such supposition.

Rather the manner of the truth that endureth from generation to generation is the actual simple test:

Psalms 33:10-11

10The LORD bringeth the counsel of the Heathen to naught, and turneth the devices of the people. 11But the counsel of the LORD endureth, and the thoughts of his heart from generation to generation.

Psalms 100:5

For the LORD is gracious, his mercy is everlasting, and his truth endureth from generation to generation.

Psalms 119:89-90

89Lamed. O LORD, thy word endureth forever in heaven. 90Thy truth also remaineth from one generation to another: thou hast laid the foundation of the earth, and it abideth.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Yes, today we can say the William Tyndale like every other martyr before and after Christ were indeed inspired. What other inspiration is there other than that a man bestow his life for his friends!?

You mean he had the power of the Holy Spirit to resurrect from the dead?

Yes, like it is promised in Christ:

Romans 8:10-11

10If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin: But the spirit is life for righteousness' sake. 11Wherefore if the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from death, dwell in you: even he that raised up Christ from death, shall quicken your mortal bodies, be cause that his spirit dwelleth in you.

Code:

Eph 1:13 In whom also ye (after that ye heard the word of truth, I mean the gospel of your health,{salvation} wherein ye believed) were sealed with the holy spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 which is the earnest of our inheritance, to redeem the possession purchased{to our redemption} unto the laud<praise> of his glory.

Quote:

1Co 15:20 [But] Now is Christ risen from death,{the dead} and is become the first fruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For by a man came death, and by a man came resurrection of death.{the dead.}
1Co 15:22 For as by Adam all die: even so by Christ, shall all be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and every man in his own order: The first is Christ, then they that are<belong unto> Christ's at his coming.<when he commeth>
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he hath delivered up the kingdom to God the father, when he hath put down all rule, authority,<and all superiority> and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must rule<reign> till he have put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest, that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Rather it is lawful to say that William Tyndale translated from the original tongues of the Scriptures.

It was the first English Bible that was translated directly from the original language. All the English manuscript Bibles were translations from the Vulgate; but Tyndale's New Testament was taken from the Greek, which he knew from the editions by Erasmus, published in 1516, 1519, and 1522. As subsidiary aids he employed the Latin version attached by Erasmus to his Greek text, Luther's German translation of 1522, and the Vulgate (www.bible-researcher.com)

Erasmus, 1516. Desiderius Erasmus, Dutch Catholic scholar and humanist noted for Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.
-
Erasmus, 1516. Desiderius Erasmus, Dutch Catholic scholar and humanist noted for Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

Robert Estienne (Stephens 1550) in his influential third edition (1550), which in turn provided the basis for all editions later published by Beza (1565-98), subsequently followed by the translators of the King James version. The editions of Elzevir (1624, 1633) also derived from Erasmus 1527, as mediated by Estienne and Beza.

Beza was chiefly indebted, but rather to the previous edition of the eminent Robert Estienne (1550), itself based in great measure upon one of the later editions of Erasmus.

Elzevir, 1624. [Isaac Elzevir], Dutch printers and publishers, Novum Testamentum Gr?ce practically a reprint of the text of Beza 1565. The Elzevirs' 1633 edition became known as the "Textus Receptus"

Take heed how you use the term "Catholic" because Erasmus eloquently fought against all the heresies of the so called seen "church". For the true word catholic means the universal hidden believer and not anything seen by the outer appearance of the world.

2 Corinthians 4:3-7

3If our Gospell be yet hid, it is hid among them that are lost, 4in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest should shine unto them the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, which is the image of God, 5for we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and preach ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For it is God that commanded the light to shine out of darkness, which hath shined in our hearts, for to give the light of knowledge of the glorious God, in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellent power of it might appear to be of God, and not of us.

Code:

Eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives, even as Christ loved the congregation, and gave himself for it,
Eph 5:26 to sanctify it, and cleansed it in the fountain of water thorow<by> the word,
Eph 5:27 to make it unto himself, a glorious congregation without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing: but that it should be holy and without blame.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives, as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet, hated his own flesh: But nourisheth, and cherisheth it: even as the Lord doth the congregation:
Eph 5:30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall continue with his wife, and two shall be made one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great secret, but I speak between Christ and the congregation.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless do ye so that every one of you love his wife truly even as himself: And let the wife see that she fear her husband.

Ironically Peter inspired by the wholy ghost well declared such great spiritual truth likewise:

1 Peter 3:1-4

1Likewise let the women be in subjection to their husbands, that even they which believe not the word, may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives: 2while they behold your pure conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose apparel shall not be outward with broided hair, and hanging on of gold, other in putting on of gorgeous apparel: 4but let the hid man of the heart be uncorrupt, with a meek and a quiet spirit, which spirit is before God a thing much set by.

Heman wrote:

Mat 7:13 Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be, which go in thereat.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Is your trust in Scholars?

Psalms 118:8

It is better to trust in the LORD, than to put any confidence in man.

Psalms 14:1-7

If your trust is in God the sovereign LORD, why then do you slander HIS providence from one generation to another by assuming that it's

Heman wrote:

"quite limited ...being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality

.

Your opinion and mss. preference is not a basis to make anything "more truer" than for ensample the Greek Byzantine Text (4th Century) that has withstood the test of time while the "uncial MSS" you refer to were only found much later and even disagree with one another and in turn don't agree with the received text five thousand fold.

----------------------

Heman wrote:

Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

Jadmin wrote:

The fact of the matter is that terminology like "textus receptus", "humanist", and "catholic" have no original bearing with today's widely broad definition thereof that can sow all kinds of false suppositions.

Heman wrote:

We are of God; that is why those who know God listen to us. If they do not know God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception (1 John 4:6)

The verse before it says why that is:

1 John 4:5-6

5They are of the world, therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God. He that knoweth God heareth us: He that is not of God, heareth us not. Hereby know we the spirit of verity, and the spirit of error.

Us is refering to those that acknowledge Iesu Christ as coming in the flesh.

Repent, for God knows how your original slander can more refer to those "uncial MSS" that have no faithful backing whatsoever by previous generations.

Code:

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars?<thistles?>

If you amend to rather take into account also the Byzantine (4th Century) and Erasmus compilation of Manuscripts faithfully passed from generation to generation, I perceive it'll bring great fruits.. (as you may have a great gift from above to translate the original tongues.)

Code:

2Ti 2:19 But the sure ground of God remaineth,<stondeth fast> and hath this seal: the Lord knoweth them that are his, and let every man that calleth on the name of Christ, depart from iniquity.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

heman
Banned!

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Joplin, MO, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Take Heed and Beware

JAdmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

The phrase originals or "uncial MSS", refers to all of the important old manuscripts of the Greek text made prior to the tenth century, which are written in large capital letters.

Psalms 33:10-11

10The LORD bringeth the counsel of the Heathen to naught, and turneth the devices of the people. 11But the counsel of the LORD endureth, and the thoughts of his heart from generation to generation.

Psalms 100:5

For the LORD is gracious, his mercy is everlasting, and his truth endureth from generation to generation.

Psalms 119:89-90

89Lamed. O LORD, thy word endureth forever in heaven. 90Thy truth also remaineth from one generation to another: thou hast laid the foundation of the earth, and it abideth.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Yes, today we can say the William Tyndale like every other martyr before and after Christ were indeed inspired. What other inspiration is there other than that a man bestow his life for his friends!?

You mean he had the power of the Holy Spirit to resurrect from the dead?

Yes, like it is promised in Christ:

Romans 8:10-11

Code:

Quote:

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Rather it is lawful to say that William Tyndale translated from the original tongues of the Scriptures.

2 Corinthians 4:3-7

Code:

Ironically Peter inspired by the wholy ghost well declared such great spiritual truth likewise:

1 Peter 3:1-4

Heman wrote:

Mat 7:13 Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be, which go in thereat.

Heman wrote:

Jadmin wrote:

Is your trust in Scholars?

Psalms 118:8

It is better to trust in the LORD, than to put any confidence in man.

Psalms 14:1-7

If your trust is in God the sovereign LORD, why then do you slander HIS providence from one generation to another by assuming that it's

Heman wrote:

"quite limited ...being confined to a few late medieval texts that most modern scholars consider to be of dubious quality

Heman wrote:

Textus Receptus used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament by William Tyndale.

Jadmin wrote:

Heman wrote:

We are of God; that is why those who know God listen to us. If they do not know God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception (1 John 4:6)

The verse before it says why that is:

1 John 4:5-6

Code:

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns? Or figs of briars?<thistles?>

Code:

2Ti 2:19 But the sure ground of God remaineth,<stondeth fast> and hath this seal: the Lord knoweth them that are his, and let every man that calleth on the name of Christ, depart from iniquity.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of God, and of Christ who loved me, and delivered himself up on my behalf.

{WT} 2:20I am crucified with Christ. I live verily, yet now not I, but Christ liveth in me. The life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the son of God, which loved me, and gave himself for me.

3:1 ? O thoughtless Galatians, who hath deluded you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been written about beforehand, to be fixed on a stake?

{WT} 3:1O foolish Galatians:who hath bewitched you, that ye should not believe the truth? to whom Jesus Christ was described before the eyes, and among you crucified?

Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled,

There are instances in which Alexandrian and Byzantine texts disagree in a significant way. One example is 1 Timothy 3:16. The Byzantine texts read "God was manifest in the flesh", whereas Alexandrian texts, with support from the Old Latin, Vulgate, Peshitta, Western text-type and many early church fathers read "He was manifest in the flesh".

Byzantine Text

Erasmus based his work on fewer than a half-dozen manuscripts from the Byzantine text-type, all of which dated from the twelfth century or later.

This text came to be known as the Textus Receptus or received text after being thus termed by Elizevir, an enterprising publisher from the Netherlands, in his 1633 edition of Erasmus' text.

The KJVof the Bible was translated from editions of what was to become the Textus Receptus. The argument is that the much greater number of Byzantine manuscripts indicate a superior claim to being an accurate copy from the autograph.

When the actual facts are:
?That Lucian of Antioch used his text critical skills to produce a recension. (Jerome makes separate references to Lucian's recensions of both old and new testaments).
?That Constantine paid for the wide distribution of manuscripts which came from a common source. (There are several references in Eusebius of Caesarea to Constantine paying for manuscript production).
?That after the Roman Empire stopped using Greek, and because of Muslim invasion, the only church to actively preserve the Greek text was the Byzantine church, which exercised central control from the Apostolic See of Antioch and withstood the Muslims until the 15th century.
?Alexandrian manuscripts appear to have been more widespread than Byzantine manuscripts until the wave of copying in the Byzantine church overtook them around the 9th century.T

The oldest near-complete manuscripts of the New Testament (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, both believed to be from the early 4th century CE) belong to this text-type (Alexandrian).

The earliest papyri manuscripts of the New Testament such as P66 and P75 from the 2nd century also are of the Alexandrian type.

Starting with Karl Lachmann (1850), manuscripts of the Alexandrian text-type have been the most influential in modern, critical editions of the Greek New Testament, achieving widespread acceptance in the text of Westcott & Hort (1881), and culminating in the United Bible Society 4th edition and Nestle-Aland, 27th edition of the New Testament.

Most textual critics of the New Testament favor the Alexandrian text-type as the best representative of the autographs for many reasons.

One reason is that Alexandrian manuscripts are the oldest we have found, and some of the earliest church fathers used readings found in the Alexandrian text.

Another is that often the Alexandrian reading is the only one that can explain the origin of all the variant readings found in other text-types.T

The oldest manuscripts, being of the Alexandrian text-type, are the most favored, and the critical text has an Alexandrian disposition. (United Bible Society, 4th ed. and Nestle-Aland, 27th ed.).

Most scholars are generally agreed that there is no evidence of systematic theological alteration in any of the text types.

Canons of textual criticism
?The reading is to be preferred that most fitly explains the existence of the others."
The process of constructing the stemma is called recension, or the Latin recensio.
Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687?1752); Johann Jakob Griesbach (1745?1812); Brooke Foss Westcott (1825?1901) and Fenton J. A. Hort (1828?1892);

Copy-Text Editing

Using the copy-text method, the critic examines the base text and makes corrections (called emendations) in places where the base text appears wrong to the critic. This can be done by looking for places in the base text that do not make sense or by looking at the text of other witnesses for a superior reading.
Close-call decisions are usually resolved in favor of the copy-text.

The first published, printed edition of the Greek New Testament was produced by this method. Erasmus, the editor, selected a manuscript from the local Dominican monastery in Basle and corrected its obvious errors by consulting other local manuscripts.

The Westcott and Hort text, which was the basis for the Revised Version of the English bible, also used the copy-text method, using the Codex Vaticanus as the base manuscript.

In McKerrow's method as originally introduced, the copy-text was not necessarily the earliest text. even if it contained authorial corrections ? By 1939, in his Prolegomena for the Oxford Shakespeare, McKerrow had changed his mind about this approach, even if it contained authorial corrections ? would "deviate more widely than the earliest print from the author's original manuscript."

He therefore concluded that the correct procedure would be "produced by using the earliest "good" print as copy-text.

However, following Westcott and Hort, most modern New Testament textual critics have concluded that the Byzantine text-type is late, based on the Alexandrian and Western text-types.

Among the other types, the Alexandrian is viewed as more pure than the Western, and so one of the central tenets of current New Testament textual criticism is that one should follow the readings of the Alexandrian texts unless those of the other types are clearly superior.

Byzantine Errors

Most scholars of textual criticism hold that John 21 is a later addition to the work, normally called the Appendix to the Gospel by scholars.
There is much debate about the ending of Mark, and many textual problems?there are nine different endings (or combinations of endings) known?but most of the debate focuses around the so-called ?longer? ending (16:9-20).
John 7:53?8:11 B. M. Metzger writes that the evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress is overwhelming and not found in the Alexandrian types.

JAdmin
Moderator

Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 279

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: The Plain Truth

The 4th Century Byzantine text is a great ensample of a faithful manuscript because it has withstood the test of time. But as far as some other manuscripts fabricated even from that time, it is no wonder God allowed the Muslims to overtake most of Europe with it's modified texts that misrepresent HIM, and gave mercy to the Western part of the world to even bravely acquire it's territory back because God the sovereign Lord was with them and their Byzantine expression. Even the Muslims acknowledged that and fled! Notwithstanding, can that be said to be in the same state today even with the Byzantine text thereof.. Only God knows them that are his, because it is not even a manuscript that makes a believer but the believer with the holy ghost to begin with that makes the text.

----------------------

Heman wrote:

There are instances in which Alexandrian and Byzantine texts disagree in a significant way. One example is 1 Timothy 3:16. The Byzantine texts read "God was manifest in the flesh", whereas Alexandrian texts, with support from the Old Latin, Vulgate, Peshitta, Western text-type and many early church fathers read "He was manifest in the flesh".

1 Timothy 3:16

And without nay great is that mystery of godliness. God was shewed in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, was seen of angels, was preached unto the gentiles, was believed on in earth and received up in glory.

In Portuguese "He" is "Ele" and that may be correctly expressed in that language because El in Hebrew means God almighty. Though we are not speaking of Portuguese but of English.
And thus again..
Who are we to limit God's expression to only how it was copied, or even penned first!? Though I also believe that the Scriptures in it's original tongues MUST be rendered as they were originally inspired,

Code:

2Pe 1:20 So that ye first know this, that no prophecy in the scripture hath<is done of> any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the scripture<prophecy> came never by the will of man: but wholy men of God spake as they were moved by the wholy ghost.

notwithstanding, God is at liberty to express his verity however he chooses from generation to generation. For language and the expression thereof changes, and thus a need arises to correctly express it in verity.
or.. Does God give his spirit by measure?

John 3:34

For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God. For God giveth not the spirit by measure.

The truth of the pudding ought to be verified in what it says (even tastes) backed up with atleast two or three passages for a whole course. Yea such as First Timothy 3:16 that has plenty of Scripture to back up the fact that:

Isaiah 7:14

And therefore the Lord shall give you a token of himself: Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel.

Matthew 1:23

Behold a maid shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shalt call his name Emmanuel, which is as much to say, by interpretation, as God with us.

Isaiah 8:7-10

7Behold the Lord shall bring mighty and great floods of water upon them: namely, the king of the Assirians with all his power. Which shall pour out his furriousness upon every man, and run over all their banks. 8And shall break in upon Juda, increasing in power, till he get him by the throat. He shall fill also the wideness of thy land with his broad wings, O Emmanuel. 9Go together ye people, and gather you, hearken to all ye of far countries. Muster you, and gather you: muster you and gather you, 10take your counsel together, yet must your counsel come to nought: go in hand withal, yet shall it not prosper. Except Emmanuel: (that is God) be with us.

Code:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the father, and the father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself: but the father dwelling in me is he that doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe that I am in the father, and the father in me. At the least believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily I say unto you whosoever believeth on me, the works that I do, the same shall he do, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my father.

In-deed God was, is and will be manifest in the flesh.

And the fact remains that the mss you mention were dug up recently (within not even two generations) and have no faithful evidence from one past generation to another (but even to the contrary). Besides who's to say that such mss were not forged? even from the Apostles' time:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

1We beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesu Christ, and in that we shall assemble unto him, 2that ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, and be not troubled, neither by spirit, neither by words, nor yet by letter, which should seem to come from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

Nevertheless, Scholars can have their suppositions..
Even sound like the friends of Job;
Yet Job well replies:

Job 19:21-29

21Have pity upon me, have pity upon me (O ye my friends) for the hand of the Lord hath touched me. 22Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied of my flesh? 23O that my words were written, O that they were put in a book: 24would God they were graven with an iron pen in lead or in stone. 25For I am sure, that my redeemer liveth, and that I shall rise out of the earth in the latter day: 26that I shall be clothed again with this skin, and see God in my flesh. 27Yea I my self shall behold him, not with other but with these same eyes. My reins are consumed within me, 28when ye say: Why do not we persecute him? We have found an occasion against him. 29But beware of the sword, for the sword will be avenged of wickedness, and be sure, that there is a judgement.

That brings to remembrance:

Psalms 69:9

For the zeal of thine house hath even eaten me, and the rebukes of them that rebuked thee, is fallen upon me.

John 2:15-17

15And he made a scourge of small cords, and drave them all out of the temple, both sheep and oxen, and poured down the changers' money, and overthrew their tables. 16And said unto them that sold doves: Have these things hence, and make not my father's house, an house of merchandise. 17 His disciples remembered, how that it was written: The zeal of thine house, hath even eaten me.

Yea, as well does King David reply:

Psalms 35:1-28

1Of David. Strive thou with them, O LORD, that strive with me, fight thou against them that fight against me. 2Lay hand upon the shield and spear, and stand up to help me. 3Draw out thy sword, and stop the way against them that persecute me, say unto my soul: I am thy help. 4Let them be confounded and put to shame, that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion, that imagine mischief for me. 5Let them be as the dust before the wind, and the angel of the LORD scattering them. 6Let their way be dark and slippery, and the angel of the LORD to persecute them. 7For they have privily laid their net to destroy me without cause, yea, and made a pit for my soul, which I never deserved. 8Let a sudden destruction come upon him unawares, and the net that he hath laid privily, catch himself, that he may fall into his own mischief. 9But let my soul be joyful in the LORD, and rejoice in his help. 10All my bones shall say: LORD, who is like unto thee? which deliverest the poor from those that are too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from his robbers. 11False witnesses are risen up, and lay to my charge things that I know not. 12They reward me evil for good, to the great discomforth of my soul. 13Nevertheless, when they were sick, I put on a sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting, and my prayer returned into mine own bosom. 14I behaved myself as though it had been my friend or my brother, I went heavily, as one that mourneth for his mother. 15But in mine adversity they rejoice, and gather them together: Yea, the very lame come together against me unawares, making mowes at me, and cease not. 16With the greedy and scornful hypocrites, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. 17Lord, when wilt thou look upon this? O restore my soul from the wicked rumour of them, my darling from the lions. 18So will I give thee thanks in the great congregation, and praise thee among much people. 19O let them not triumph over me, that are mine enemies for naught: O let them not wink with their eyes, that hate me without a cause. 20And why? their communing is not for peace, but they imagine false words against the outcasts of the land. 21They gape upon me with their mouths, saying: there there: we see it with our eyes. 22This thou seest, O LORD: hold not thy tongue then, go not far from me, O Lord. 23Awake Lord, and stand up: avenge thou my cause, my God, and my Lord. 24Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness, that they triumph not over me. 25O let them not say in their hearts: there there, so would we have it: O let them not say: we have overcome him. 26Let them be put to confusion and shame, that rejoice at my trouble: let them be clothed with rebuke and dishonour, that boast themselves against me. 27Let them also be glad and rejoice, that favour my righteous dealing: yea let them say alway: blessed be the LORD, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. 28And as for my tongue, it shall be talking of thy righteousness and of thy praise, all the day long.

Moderator wrote:

On that serious note this post is done.

_________________

Zechariah 4:6

He answered, and said unto me: This is the word of the LORD unto Zorobabel, saying: Neither thorow an host of men, nor thorow strength, but thorow my spirit, sayeth the LORD of Hosts.

Display posts from previous:

	DAVAR -> Forum Index -> Original Tongues	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

Protected by Anti-Spam ACP